"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...


2 - How can you make a content analysis of any material without first
starting at a reference point? If that reference point isn't zero,
then was is it?

3 - If the baseline is not zero, how do you determine what zero is?

I am very interested in your response - I wish to be enlightened.

Later,

Tom

Howdy Tom,

I was following this thread with casual interest until I realized that
moisture meter is, as the other poster suggested, really a density meter. I
am curious if it is really a ultrasonic density measuring system. I recall
that they are calibrated using calibration blocks of a material with a know
and certified density.

Eisboch

I knew I'd be opening a can o' worms!

The Tramex reading he go on the cockpit was virtually zero, to give an idea
of calibration. The foredeck was a spotty 60-100, but Trojans have always
been weak in this area. All soundings were good (including the hull),
except for two small foredeck spots w/ compromised soundings.



"Marley" wrote in message
...
Izmack wrote:
Hi Everyone,

We are looking at at late 80's Trojan F32 with very high moisture
readings in the hull, but zero signs of blistering either currently or
in the past. Our surveyor, who was VERY thorough, said the following:

"Bottom was found in above average condition, having no signs of
blistering,crazing or delamination. High moisture levels were noted,
ranging between 80-100 and some crusty deposits were noted, indicating
laminate hydrolysis. Recommendation to dry store vessel each winter off
season to maintain current good condition. If vessel is left overboard,
some blistering or delamination could be expected over time."

I know I'm asking for a barrage of opinions, but, considering it's a 16
year old boat and the fact we are first time boat buyers and that the
rest of the survey was above average, what do you all think? And -
will future buyers balk at resale?


You need to better understand moisture meters and readings.

Moisture meters have to be calibrated very carefully.

For example they are used extensively in determining the amount of
moisture in lumber when it is being or has been cut or kiln dried. In
order to make that determination the user first sets the calibration of
the meter against a known standard. In other words, using a piece of
identical lumber of a specific known moisture content that is kept in a
controlled environment.

In the case of a boat, that is not easily accomplished. In fact is
impossible. You don't have a standard upon which to calibrate the
meter. Bottom line, the actual NUMBER read is completely meaningless. I
repeat, it is MEANINGLESS.

The ONLY results that are really valid when metering a boat relate to
the differences in level found at different points on the hull. A
reading like 80-100 is truly meaningless in a non-calibrated environment.

What DOES hold meaning is if your meter reads a level like 80 everywhere
EXCEPT around a through hull or some other fitting where it reads
substantially higher. That might indicate a problem in the hull where
the through hull is bedded. BUT it might also indicate that the glass
surrounding the through hull is thicker (more dense which reads higher)
for increased strength.

You should also do readings with a meter on the deck, in areas where the
deck is not penetrated (middle of the deck for example) and then around
various fittings like cleats, hatches, winches, etc. Assuming that the
deck is cored with a water permeable material (some are, some aren't), a
higher reading relative to a non-pentrated spot might indicate moisture
in the core. It doesn't mean there is moisture for sure...it means
further investigation is appropriate.

Moisture meters readings of hulls and decks are completely subjective in
nature. The only really useful thing they offer is an indication of
possible problem areas where readings are substantially higher than
other areas.

Even then, further investigation often proves a valid reason for the
reason.

Just to give you an examle of what I mean by calibrating a meter: I can
place my meter on my saloon table and adjust the calibration so that it
reads anywhere from 0 to about 200. So if I set it to 200, does that
mean that my saloon table is completely full of water? No it doesn't, it
means that I set it to 200....nothing more.

Believe it or not, MANY surveyors frequently have no clue that this is
the case.

Geri izmack wrote:

I knew I'd be opening a can o' worms!

The Tramex reading he go on the cockpit was virtually zero, to give an idea
of calibration. The foredeck was a spotty 60-100, but Trojans have always
been weak in this area. All soundings were good (including the hull),
except for two small foredeck spots w/ compromised soundings.



The foredeck may be cored, while the hull may be (and should be) solid
below the water line.

Therefore a comparison between the two is fairly meaningless since they
both differ in density.

In other words zero on the deck and higher in the hull means nothing
more than...the hull is more dense than the deck. And that is normally
the case.

Just think about a moisture meter as what it REALLY is... a density
meter. Just doing that one thing will allow you to apply logic and
reason to the results that they give.

I'm afraid I don't have time to debate the matter with those who are
uniformed but stubborn.

Hope this info helps!

Best of luck
M

P.S. - if you are wondering why I know htis it's because I am an
engineer and designed non-invasive "moisure meters" for a living some
years ago.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:34:10 GMT, "Geri"
wrote:

I knew I'd be opening a can o' worms!

The Tramex reading he go on the cockpit was virtually zero, to give an idea
of calibration. The foredeck was a spotty 60-100, but Trojans have always
been weak in this area. All soundings were good (including the hull),
except for two small foredeck spots w/ compromised soundings.

Well, in any case, good luck with it.

And don't worry about the little side track - sometimes it's hard to
get a point across - in particular when you are dealing with somebody
who "designed" something.

Regardless, moisture readings are not meaningless. It's kind of
interesting going through the Tramex site and checking out the meter
specs. It's an education.

The meter I have, by the way, is the Skipper. I kind of inherited it
from somebody who was going out of the survey business. :)

Good luck.

Later,

Tom

Phew! Thanlks everyone for your responses. I can honestly say I'm now more
educated on the matter, yet still pretty indecisive on the purchase.

Cheers!!

Geri


"Izmack" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Everyone,

We are looking at at late 80's Trojan F32 with very high moisture
readings in the hull, but zero signs of blistering either currently or
in the past. Our surveyor, who was VERY thorough, said the following:

"Bottom was found in above average condition, having no signs of
blistering,crazing or delamination. High moisture levels were noted,
ranging between 80-100 and some crusty deposits were noted, indicating
laminate hydrolysis. Recommendation to dry store vessel each winter off
season to maintain current good condition. If vessel is left overboard,
some blistering or delamination could be expected over time."

I know I'm asking for a barrage of opinions, but, considering it's a 16
year old boat and the fact we are first time boat buyers and that the
rest of the survey was above average, what do you all think? And -
will future buyers balk at resale?

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:02:52 GMT, "Geri"
wrote:

Phew! Thanlks everyone for your responses. I can honestly say I'm now more
educated on the matter, yet still pretty indecisive on the purchase.

================================================== ====

If everything else is good, you like the boat, and the price is right,
I'd go for it. If the high readings are only on the foredeck, look
for secondary indications such as mildew, cracking, flex, crackling
noises when you walk over it, etc. If there are no secondary
indications of delamination or soft core you are probably OK, just
something to keep an eye on in the future.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:46:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:02:52 GMT, "Geri"
wrote:

Phew! Thanlks everyone for your responses. I can honestly say I'm now more
educated on the matter, yet still pretty indecisive on the purchase.

================================================= =====

If everything else is good, you like the boat, and the price is right,
I'd go for it. If the high readings are only on the foredeck, look
for secondary indications such as mildew, cracking, flex, crackling
noises when you walk over it, etc. If there are no secondary
indications of delamination or soft core you are probably OK, just
something to keep an eye on in the future.

And the addition of torpedo tubes, TOWs and twin .50 cals on the fore
deck will really impress the neighbors.

Hell, as long as you are at it, paint it with stealth materials.

WHOO HOO!!!

Later,

Tom

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:59:29 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:46:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:02:52 GMT, "Geri"
wrote:

Phew! Thanlks everyone for your responses. I can honestly say I'm now more
educated on the matter, yet still pretty indecisive on the purchase.

================================================ ======

If everything else is good, you like the boat, and the price is right,
I'd go for it. If the high readings are only on the foredeck, look
for secondary indications such as mildew, cracking, flex, crackling
noises when you walk over it, etc. If there are no secondary
indications of delamination or soft core you are probably OK, just
something to keep an eye on in the future.

And the addition of torpedo tubes, TOWs and twin .50 cals on the fore
deck will really impress the neighbors.

Hell, as long as you are at it, paint it with stealth materials.

WHOO HOO!!!

Even better - put a set of wheels under, some really sharp rims, low
profile tires, a spoiler, do a funky vinyl job with some bright paint,
add a 2400 watt stereo with a really monster set of 24" subs - cruise
the highways and biways.

Hmmm - a little much maybe?

Later,

Tom

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:59:29 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

And the addition of torpedo tubes, TOWs and twin .50 cals on the fore
deck will really impress the neighbors.

Hell, as long as you are at it, paint it with stealth materials.

WHOO HOO!!!

===========================

Did I miss something here?

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:50:49 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:59:29 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

And the addition of torpedo tubes, TOWs and twin .50 cals on the fore
deck will really impress the neighbors.

Hell, as long as you are at it, paint it with stealth materials.

WHOO HOO!!!

===========================

Did I miss something here?

Obviously. :)

Not to worry - it was a musing on my part that in retrospect, was a
little strange.

It happens sometimes. :)

Later,

Tom