Hi Everyone,

We are looking at at late 80's Trojan F32 with very high moisture
readings in the hull, but zero signs of blistering either currently or
in the past. Our surveyor, who was VERY thorough, said the following:

"Bottom was found in above average condition, having no signs of
blistering,crazing or delamination. High moisture levels were noted,
ranging between 80-100 and some crusty deposits were noted, indicating
laminate hydrolysis. Recommendation to dry store vessel each winter off
season to maintain current good condition. If vessel is left overboard,
some blistering or delamination could be expected over time."

I know I'm asking for a barrage of opinions, but, considering it's a 16
year old boat and the fact we are first time boat buyers and that the
rest of the survey was above average, what do you all think? And -
will future buyers balk at resale?

"Izmack" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Everyone,

We are looking at at late 80's Trojan F32 with very high moisture
readings in the hull, but zero signs of blistering either currently or
in the past. Our surveyor, who was VERY thorough, said the following:

"Bottom was found in above average condition, having no signs of
blistering,crazing or delamination. High moisture levels were noted,
snip...

I went through this same anguish last May. I found a beautiful model of the
trailerable sailboat I was looking for, about 800 miles from my home, over
the internet.
The asking price was $ 6500.00. As I was awkardly negotiating over the
phone with the francophone owner, he told me that another potential buyer
just had a survey done and there were elevated levels of moisture in the few
places that wood was present. I quickly called the company who built the
sailboat and they assured me it was common for some moisture to be present
in an 18 year old boat and if the price was right , not to worry. I went
back to the seller and he offered to drop the price to $5000.00. I said
'sold' and hit the road with my brother-in-law's big Dodge Ram 1500 pickup
truck.
When I got there the boat looked almost perfect although there was a fair
amount of water in the lazerette. With this model, you have to make sure
that the two little drainholes for the cockpit seats are clear of leaves &
debris...otherwise the water rises an inch or two and can make it's way up
over the lip of the lazerette hatch cover.
I haven't tested it since, but if i could get ahold of a meter, I'd love to
see how it rates after sitting covered all winter.

"Moisture Readings" can be very confusing. First, such meters only
measure the 'surface moisture'. Second these 'meters' are rarely
calibrated. Third, an instrument is only as good as the operator who
uses it.

Virtually ALL plastics are permeable/porous in nature so if a hull were
ever i n the water it would naturally have 'moisture'. That the hull
shows NO evidence of blistering means that the laminate structure is
intact, doesnt have a degradation by 'hydrolysis' - a decomposition of
the stryene 'binder', etc. At over 18 years of age it would be VERY
doutful that this hull would form 'blisters' in the future.
Blistering primarily occurst in the matting layer between the gelcoat
and the structural roving/cloth layers .... and is a cosmetic layer.
Bilistering usually forms when the original layup doesnt have
sufficient resin, leaves teeny air/gas spaces along the glass fibers
into which moiisture can permeate.

With zero blisters now or in the past, you probably have a VERY good
hull that would not blister in the future ..... but no guarantee as
sometimes when you move a blisterless boat from salt water to fresh
water blister sometimes become evident.

Usually blisters are hype and unless the blistering is deep down into
the structural part of the laminate there will be NO problem. Beware
of DIY blister repair as this usually makes the hull VERY vulnerable to
further significant blistering .... sometimes to the extent that a hull
is beyond repair. Proper blister repair is to usually entirely remove
the degraded (matting) layer (peeling/cutting .... not grinding nor
sandblasting, etc.) and rebuild with a resin-rich layer to prevent
future water permeation.

NO visible blisters or just a few here and there on an old boat ......
a good one!



In article .com,
Izmack wrote:

Hi Everyone,

We are looking at at late 80's Trojan F32 with very high moisture
readings in the hull, but zero signs of blistering either currently or
in the past. Our surveyor, who was VERY thorough, said the following:

"Bottom was found in above average condition, having no signs of
blistering,crazing or delamination. High moisture levels were noted,
ranging between 80-100 and some crusty deposits were noted, indicating
laminate hydrolysis. Recommendation to dry store vessel each winter off
season to maintain current good condition. If vessel is left overboard,
some blistering or delamination could be expected over time."

I know I'm asking for a barrage of opinions, but, considering it's a 16
year old boat and the fact we are first time boat buyers and that the
rest of the survey was above average, what do you all think? And -
will future buyers balk at resale?

On 20 Mar 2005 07:50:38 -0800, "Izmack" wrote:

Hi Everyone,

We are looking at at late 80's Trojan F32 with very high moisture
readings in the hull, but zero signs of blistering either currently or
in the past. Our surveyor, who was VERY thorough, said the following:

"Bottom was found in above average condition, having no signs of
blistering,crazing or delamination. High moisture levels were noted,
ranging between 80-100 and some crusty deposits were noted, indicating
laminate hydrolysis. Recommendation to dry store vessel each winter off
season to maintain current good condition. If vessel is left overboard,
some blistering or delamination could be expected over time."

I know I'm asking for a barrage of opinions, but, considering it's a 16
year old boat and the fact we are first time boat buyers and that the
rest of the survey was above average, what do you all think? And -
will future buyers balk at resale?

Here is an online resource for you on laminate hydrolysis.

http://www.zahnisers.com/repair/blister/blister1.htm

Did the surveyor mention how extensive the moisture was? Was it
specifically located or an overall condition? What is the rating of
the moisture - 80 to 100% or was that a measuring scale and what
percentage would that reading indicate? Some moisture readers work
on a readable scale - some display direct moisture percentage.

If it's only a local condition at one or two points in the hull, then
I wouldn't worry about it - for a 16 year old boat, that's not bad at
all.

If it's an overall condition in the hull, then I wouldn't buy it -
something has gone wrong with the gel coat and the hull is
compromised. You could be looking at future problems which could make
it more expensive than you bargained for.

You may not have blisters now, but the it's likely that you will have
them in the future.

Later,

Tom

Don White wrote:

I haven't tested it since, but if i could get ahold of a meter, I'd love to
see how it rates after sitting covered all winter.

what's stopping you?

www.electrophysics.on.ca

look under fibreglass boats, there's a model you can order from Kentucky

Thanks - I'd seen that article. Actually, the surveyor who did the work
works very near Zahniser's and is condidered an expert with this. I believe
him when he says it's not an issue, but my concern is - will the next buyer,
or will we end up taking a hit on cost or, worse, have no offers at all?

It was 80-100 points generalized across the hull, measured on a Tramex
meter.



"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On 20 Mar 2005 07:50:38 -0800, "Izmack" wrote:

Hi Everyone,

We are looking at at late 80's Trojan F32 with very high moisture
readings in the hull, but zero signs of blistering either currently or
in the past. Our surveyor, who was VERY thorough, said the following:

"Bottom was found in above average condition, having no signs of
blistering,crazing or delamination. High moisture levels were noted,
ranging between 80-100 and some crusty deposits were noted, indicating
laminate hydrolysis. Recommendation to dry store vessel each winter off
season to maintain current good condition. If vessel is left overboard,
some blistering or delamination could be expected over time."

I know I'm asking for a barrage of opinions, but, considering it's a 16
year old boat and the fact we are first time boat buyers and that the
rest of the survey was above average, what do you all think? And -
will future buyers balk at resale?

Here is an online resource for you on laminate hydrolysis.

http://www.zahnisers.com/repair/blister/blister1.htm

Did the surveyor mention how extensive the moisture was? Was it
specifically located or an overall condition? What is the rating of
the moisture - 80 to 100% or was that a measuring scale and what
percentage would that reading indicate? Some moisture readers work
on a readable scale - some display direct moisture percentage.

If it's only a local condition at one or two points in the hull, then
I wouldn't worry about it - for a 16 year old boat, that's not bad at
all.

If it's an overall condition in the hull, then I wouldn't buy it -
something has gone wrong with the gel coat and the hull is
compromised. You could be looking at future problems which could make
it more expensive than you bargained for.

You may not have blisters now, but the it's likely that you will have
them in the future.

Later,

Tom

Izmack wrote:
Hi Everyone,

We are looking at at late 80's Trojan F32 with very high moisture
readings in the hull, but zero signs of blistering either currently or
in the past. Our surveyor, who was VERY thorough, said the following:

"Bottom was found in above average condition, having no signs of
blistering,crazing or delamination. High moisture levels were noted,
ranging between 80-100 and some crusty deposits were noted, indicating
laminate hydrolysis. Recommendation to dry store vessel each winter off
season to maintain current good condition. If vessel is left overboard,
some blistering or delamination could be expected over time."

I know I'm asking for a barrage of opinions, but, considering it's a 16
year old boat and the fact we are first time boat buyers and that the
rest of the survey was above average, what do you all think? And -
will future buyers balk at resale?


You need to better understand moisture meters and readings.

Moisture meters have to be calibrated very carefully.

For example they are used extensively in determining the amount of
moisture in lumber when it is being or has been cut or kiln dried. In
order to make that determination the user first sets the calibration of
the meter against a known standard. In other words, using a piece of
identical lumber of a specific known moisture content that is kept in a
controlled environment.

In the case of a boat, that is not easily accomplished. In fact is
impossible. You don't have a standard upon which to calibrate the
meter. Bottom line, the actual NUMBER read is completely meaningless. I
repeat, it is MEANINGLESS.

The ONLY results that are really valid when metering a boat relate to
the differences in level found at different points on the hull. A
reading like 80-100 is truly meaningless in a non-calibrated environment.

What DOES hold meaning is if your meter reads a level like 80 everywhere
EXCEPT around a through hull or some other fitting where it reads
substantially higher. That might indicate a problem in the hull where
the through hull is bedded. BUT it might also indicate that the glass
surrounding the through hull is thicker (more dense which reads higher)
for increased strength.

You should also do readings with a meter on the deck, in areas where the
deck is not penetrated (middle of the deck for example) and then around
various fittings like cleats, hatches, winches, etc. Assuming that the
deck is cored with a water permeable material (some are, some aren't), a
higher reading relative to a non-pentrated spot might indicate moisture
in the core. It doesn't mean there is moisture for sure...it means
further investigation is appropriate.

Moisture meters readings of hulls and decks are completely subjective in
nature. The only really useful thing they offer is an indication of
possible problem areas where readings are substantially higher than
other areas.

Even then, further investigation often proves a valid reason for the reason.

Just to give you an examle of what I mean by calibrating a meter: I can
place my meter on my saloon table and adjust the calibration so that it
reads anywhere from 0 to about 200. So if I set it to 200, does that
mean that my saloon table is completely full of water? No it doesn't, it
means that I set it to 200....nothing more.

Believe it or not, MANY surveyors frequently have no clue that this is
the case.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:45:15 GMT, "Geri"
wrote:

Thanks - I'd seen that article. Actually, the surveyor who did the work
works very near Zahniser's and is condidered an expert with this. I believe
him when he says it's not an issue, but my concern is - will the next buyer,
or will we end up taking a hit on cost or, worse, have no offers at all?

Well, that is my point. It may not be of concern at the moment, but
down the road, it could be significant.

The problem is that it's a maybe - maybe it will, maybe it won't. I'm
sure your surveyor is a good one, but I'm suggesting that nobody can
see the future expert or not and with that high a reading, it's
suspicious.

If it's too good a deal to pass on, compared to other boats or similar
boats, then, no - it's not a problem because you should be able to
recover most of the cost.

If it's above average on cost for what ever reason (accommodations,
equipment, engines, etc), then I'd say no.

It was 80-100 points generalized across the hull, measured on a Tramex
meter.

I'm familiar with them. It's a good meter.

Later,

Tom

"Marley" wrote in message
...

Believe it or not, MANY surveyors frequently have no clue that this is
the case.


At a seminarduring our local boat show, the speaker, who is president of an
international surveyors association, said the moisture meter is probably the
last thing he uses during a survey.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:36:54 -0500, Marley wrote:

Izmack wrote:
Hi Everyone,

We are looking at at late 80's Trojan F32 with very high moisture
readings in the hull, but zero signs of blistering either currently or
in the past. Our surveyor, who was VERY thorough, said the following:

"Bottom was found in above average condition, having no signs of
blistering,crazing or delamination. High moisture levels were noted,
ranging between 80-100 and some crusty deposits were noted, indicating
laminate hydrolysis. Recommendation to dry store vessel each winter off
season to maintain current good condition. If vessel is left overboard,
some blistering or delamination could be expected over time."

I know I'm asking for a barrage of opinions, but, considering it's a 16
year old boat and the fact we are first time boat buyers and that the
rest of the survey was above average, what do you all think? And -
will future buyers balk at resale?


You need to better understand moisture meters and readings.

Moisture meters have to be calibrated very carefully.

For example they are used extensively in determining the amount of
moisture in lumber when it is being or has been cut or kiln dried. In
order to make that determination the user first sets the calibration of
the meter against a known standard. In other words, using a piece of
identical lumber of a specific known moisture content that is kept in a
controlled environment.

In the case of a boat, that is not easily accomplished. In fact is
impossible. You don't have a standard upon which to calibrate the
meter. Bottom line, the actual NUMBER read is completely meaningless. I
repeat, it is MEANINGLESS.

~~ snippage happens ~~

The fact is that you can't calibrate a meter if you don't know were
zero is. I can only conceive of one way that a meter measure would be
invalid and that is if zero wasn't zero - as in your illustration.
Why somebody would use a meter that wasn't zero is beyond me.

Your wood sampling example is not calibration, but comparative
measurement. You have a zero meter, you measure the standard, then
measure the test piece and make the evaluation. You just can't walk
up to the standard and test it without having a baseline - which is
zero.

For straight measurement, it is most certainly accurate and it's done
all the time to determine set times for aggregate mixes, core moisture
in building roofs, materials density and many other types of
structural conditions. You walk in with a zero meter, take your
measurement and make your recommendation. What you are measuring, by
what ever method from doppler to resistance, zero has to be zero for
any measurement to be valid.

It is most certainly not meaningless.

Later,

Tom