On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:43:12 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:18:11 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:08:19 GMT, "tony thomas"
wrote:

Yamaha: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. I personally like the EFI better than the
carb since they crank and run like a car (no choke or throttle required).
Don't get Direct fuel injection. Make sure you have a local dealer that has
a good reputation.

Merc: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Don't get Optimax.
Best dealer network. Best for parts. A good local dealer will take care of
you and you won't have the warrenty issues that Short Wave talked about.

Wanna bet? :) Do we need to bring out the receipts and prove the
point one more time?

Suzuki: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Local dealer and
dealer network may be an issue.

Honda: 4 stroke (I like the least personally due to dealer network)

Evinrude / Johnson: Stay away from Period. Older ones were good in a carb
2 stroke but I don't think you want to go that old.

Karen - is that you? :)

WOW! Only a few "meaningful" responses into the thread and no
agreement at all from people that know much more than I. No wonder
I'm confused. I may just scrap the whole idea and continue to rent
boats and let someone else take care of them.

ROTFL!!!!!

You will never actually get a straight answer if you ask an open ended
question. Everybody knows somebody who knows somebody, etc. :)

Everybody agrees that Karen is...well...very negative about 2 stroke
outboards. It doesn't mean she doesn't have knowledge and can't
impart experiences that are meaningful - she can and sometimes does.
It's just in this area, she is extremely biased.

Tony is a Merc guy and is very knowledgable about Mercs. We've been
over around and through this Merc warranty thing - he refuses to
believe that anybody can have a negative experience with Mercury.
That's fine - his belief. He is a valuable contributor to the group
and we disagree on Mercury. I never said they were lousy engines - I
said their warranty policy sucks.

I completely disagree with anybody who is negative towards DI two
stroke technology. My experiences have been positive and I know a lot
of folks who have also had similar experiences. I'm so confident that
I just spent a lot of money on purchasing two E-TECs. Take that for
what you will.

There is an easy way to figure it all out. Take what the responses
have been and take a look around at the different engine
manufacturers. Make a point of going to different sales organizations
and ask questions - what is the difference between 4 stroke and 2
stroke? What is the per hour gas consumption rate? How reliable are
the engines? What is the warranty? Compare emissions figures engine
for engine. Once you have a little product knowledge, get the
technical information and make some comparisons.

Of above all, don't let personal opinions get in the way of the facts.
If you find that you are comfortable with Mercury and the Mercury
dealer, then that's the engine for you. Same with Yamaha, same with
Evinrude - anything.

Owning your own boat is fun. Don't let us with strong opinions ruin
the boat comparison and shopping experience for you.

Good luck.

Later,

Tom

I am not saying that Merc is perfect. No motor will run forever without
doing maintenance and repairs.
I just personally have had great experiences with my local Merc dealer. As
I said earlier - dealer is the most important issue.
I don't normally mention it but I am actually OMC certified as a mechanic.
I went to their school in Atlanta back in 1987. The older ones are great
and have very little problems.
Reason I say don't buy DFI of any brand is not based on the fact that every
one of them is junk. There are a lot of engines out there that are great.
My dad has an Optimax 135 on his pontoon and loves it and has never had a
problem. He bought the Optimax because he wanted the HP and that was the
only good option in that size at the time. Don't buy DFI is based on
resale. As you can see from all the posts - most will tell you the horror
stories and tell you to stay away. There just is no need at this point to
buy one. You can get a 4 stroke or 2 stroke EFI for the same price (or
less) in any size you want so why bother with the DFI.

As for the original question. Figure out who has the best dealerships and
service departments in your particular area. Then find a boat you like w/
that brand 4 stroke or 2 stroke EFI engine in the correct HP for that boat.
Just be aware that Evinrude / Johnson resale will probably be less (and
harder to sell) than the other brands due to corporate problems and
reputation.

--
Tony
my boats and cars at http://t.thomas.home.mchsi.com

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:43:12 GMT, bo jangles wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:18:11 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:08:19 GMT, "tony thomas"
wrote:

Yamaha: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. I personally like the EFI better than
the
carb since they crank and run like a car (no choke or throttle
required).
Don't get Direct fuel injection. Make sure you have a local dealer that
has
a good reputation.

Merc: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Don't get Optimax.
Best dealer network. Best for parts. A good local dealer will take
care of
you and you won't have the warrenty issues that Short Wave talked about.

Wanna bet? :) Do we need to bring out the receipts and prove the
point one more time?

Suzuki: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Local dealer and
dealer network may be an issue.

Honda: 4 stroke (I like the least personally due to dealer network)

Evinrude / Johnson: Stay away from Period. Older ones were good in a
carb
2 stroke but I don't think you want to go that old.

Karen - is that you? :)

WOW! Only a few "meaningful" responses into the thread and no
agreement at all from people that know much more than I. No wonder
I'm confused. I may just scrap the whole idea and continue to rent
boats and let someone else take care of them.

ROTFL!!!!!

You will never actually get a straight answer if you ask an open ended
question. Everybody knows somebody who knows somebody, etc. :)

Everybody agrees that Karen is...well...very negative about 2 stroke
outboards. It doesn't mean she doesn't have knowledge and can't
impart experiences that are meaningful - she can and sometimes does.
It's just in this area, she is extremely biased.

Tony is a Merc guy and is very knowledgable about Mercs. We've been
over around and through this Merc warranty thing - he refuses to
believe that anybody can have a negative experience with Mercury.
That's fine - his belief. He is a valuable contributor to the group
and we disagree on Mercury. I never said they were lousy engines - I
said their warranty policy sucks.

I completely disagree with anybody who is negative towards DI two
stroke technology. My experiences have been positive and I know a lot
of folks who have also had similar experiences. I'm so confident that
I just spent a lot of money on purchasing two E-TECs. Take that for
what you will.

There is an easy way to figure it all out. Take what the responses
have been and take a look around at the different engine
manufacturers. Make a point of going to different sales organizations
and ask questions - what is the difference between 4 stroke and 2
stroke? What is the per hour gas consumption rate? How reliable are
the engines? What is the warranty? Compare emissions figures engine
for engine. Once you have a little product knowledge, get the
technical information and make some comparisons.

Of above all, don't let personal opinions get in the way of the facts.
If you find that you are comfortable with Mercury and the Mercury
dealer, then that's the engine for you. Same with Yamaha, same with
Evinrude - anything.

Owning your own boat is fun. Don't let us with strong opinions ruin
the boat comparison and shopping experience for you.

Good luck.

Later,

Tom

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:43:12 GMT, bo jangles wrote:


On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:18:11 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:


On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:08:19 GMT, "tony thomas"
wrote:


Yamaha: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. I personally like the EFI better than the
carb since they crank and run like a car (no choke or throttle required).
Don't get Direct fuel injection. Make sure you have a local dealer that has
a good reputation.

Merc: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Don't get Optimax.
Best dealer network. Best for parts. A good local dealer will take care of
you and you won't have the warrenty issues that Short Wave talked about.

Wanna bet? :) Do we need to bring out the receipts and prove the
point one more time?


Suzuki: 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Again, EFI is better. Local dealer and
dealer network may be an issue.

Honda: 4 stroke (I like the least personally due to dealer network)

Evinrude / Johnson: Stay away from Period. Older ones were good in a carb
2 stroke but I don't think you want to go that old.

Karen - is that you? :)

WOW! Only a few "meaningful" responses into the thread and no
agreement at all from people that know much more than I. No wonder
I'm confused. I may just scrap the whole idea and continue to rent
boats and let someone else take care of them.


ROTFL!!!!!

You will never actually get a straight answer if you ask an open ended
question. Everybody knows somebody who knows somebody, etc. :)

Everybody agrees that Karen is...well...very negative about 2 stroke
outboards. It doesn't mean she doesn't have knowledge and can't
impart experiences that are meaningful - she can and sometimes does.
It's just in this area, she is extremely biased.

Hmmm I certainly think the 4 strokes are better than the 2 strokes &
I'd suggest the manufacturers (except one experimental newcomer:-)) have
made the same choices & backed their choices with their own investment
money.

I am against the DFI & if you search google groups you'll read for
weeks & weeks & see I've been saying they won't work since before they
didn't work & still to this day I say "we" are the only ones to give a
rational explanation as to why they didn't, don't & won't work in
consumer usage. If that is a bias again Tom OK I put my hands up:-)


Tony is a Merc guy and is very knowledgable about Mercs. We've been
over around and through this Merc warranty thing - he refuses to
believe that anybody can have a negative experience with Mercury.
That's fine - his belief. He is a valuable contributor to the group

He certainly is & thanks are in order.

and we disagree on Mercury. I never said they were lousy engines - I
said their warranty policy sucks.

I completely disagree with anybody who is negative towards DI two
stroke technology.

Gee Tom,

A publicly admitted failure rate of 1 in 5!!!! Imagine the real rate if
that's what the dealers themselves "admit"???:-)

US$1.3 Billion of union retirees' money lost???

7000 US workers chucked out of work???

A US icon company feet up in a table drain??

Endless boaters lost heaps on their recreation interest during the
biggest recreational spend of all time??

Mercury are so scared of DFI they're spending huge amounts on belatedly
changing over to 4 strokes & again ALL boating consumers will pay in the
end. NB Merc have now claimed dumping protection against Yamaha, which
means this season the price of OBs will go up yet again.



My experiences have been positive and I know a lot
of folks who have also had similar experiences.

You had a failure rate of i in3!!! that's even worse!!! & I hate to tell
you Tom yours too was caused by lean mixture at power, poor atomisation
induced detonation, just the same as the ejected injectors were, the
same as the fuel plumbing leaks were (till the coast guard made them
recall so people didn't die from the fires). So just because your
pistons didn't melt which was the usual failure mode, doesn't mean your
engines were not detonating, it just means the horrendous shock waves
killed under the flywheel first.


I'm so confident that
I just spent a lot of money on purchasing two E-TECs. Take that for
what you will.

No comment.... well............:-) apart from he couldn't get any money
for the Fichts any other way than buy even more bad news. Tom is now an
official tester for the latest consumer funded Ficht experiment. He's
paying over 4 stroke prices, hope he gets a supporters T shirt ( if he
can still afford it:-))



There is an easy way to figure it all out. Take what the responses
have been and take a look around at the different engine
manufacturers. Make a point of going to different sales organizations
and ask questions - what is the difference between 4 stroke and 2
stroke? What is the per hour gas consumption rate? How reliable are
the engines? What is the warranty? Compare emissions figures engine
for engine. Once you have a little product knowledge, get the
technical information and make some comparisons.

Also make sure the engines you buy are from long term players, & the
technology is well known & well established as a success, that all but
eliminates the E-Tecs & then if you have any doubts ask how they can ask
such silly prices for a glorified lawn mower 2 stroke engine, even more
than a proper 4 stroke.


Of above all, don't let personal opinions get in the way of the facts.
If you find that you are comfortable with Mercury and the Mercury
dealer, then that's the engine for you. Same with Yamaha, same with
Evinrude - anything.

Not Evinrude you'll be taking a huge risk & they haven't even really
sold any in big quantities yet. This is a re-run of Ficht where they
tell you to "trust" them & they know more than any of the proper engine
manufacturers.

Don't listen to the dealers from any brand they'll say anything to get
your money. Indeed with Ficht despite their denials it transpired
(absolutely for sure, in the courts during the OMC bankruptcy) they were
getting over 30% in kickbacks to continue to lie to consumers, imagine
that 30% of say a US$15000 OB & they didn't even have to pay for
them!!!! No wonder they're liars.

Owning your own boat is fun. Don't let us with strong opinions ruin
the boat comparison and shopping experience for you.

Good luck.

Later,

Tom

K

Speaking of liars (see how I cunningly lead into that???:-))

Another from the very sad "father series, this is the one where he
claims his dad died in the 70s so Krause stepped in to clean up, being
the greedy union employee liar he is I'm sure he cleaned up for himself;
but...........

As always his lies are just lies, anyone in the boating industry knows
dealers don't actually "own" the stock, much less a dealer in the 70 has
$3mil on the floor (what's that in todays money??? gee just cpi it & you
get $11-12 mil:-) but the liar doesn't do the math on his lies because
he's totally an uneducated buffoon. Or why would the industry be
depressed if he sold in 30 days at "near full retail, too" What an idiot.


We're probably lucky really that the lying grub did go off & become a
flunky union employee destroying the US manufacturing industries,
imagine what we'd be paying for Ficht by now:-)


I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats,
depressing the new boat industry in southern Connecticut
for an entire season.
Everything was sold...every cotter pin, every quart of oil,
30 days after I started.
For near full-retail, too.

K. Smith wrote:

snip

Mercury are so scared of DFI they're spending huge amounts on belatedly
changing over to 4 strokes & again ALL boating consumers will pay in the
end. NB Merc have now claimed dumping protection against Yamaha, which
means this season the price of OBs will go up yet again.


snip

Mercury has a line of optimax motors going to 250 HP, yet spends a great
deal of money, more than 100 million usd I think I have seen reported,
developing a line of 4 strokes, with the first models being 275 and 250
hp. It is indeed interesting to speculate why they would do such a
thing, and until Karen's post I really hadn't considered it.

Some possible reasons.... deciding validity is up to the individual. It
is possible that.....

1. Optimax is not competitive with 4 strokes due to poor reliability or
performance.

2. Optimax is more expensive to manufacture in the long run

3. Customers will migrate to 4 strokes and no longer buy two strokes for
whatever reason.

4. Optimax will be unable to meet emission requirements at some time in
the future.

5. Optimax is not suitable for motors above 250 hp, at least in some
applications.

6. Nothing wrong with Optimax but some folks want 4 strokes and Merc
needs to have them. Since they are suing Yamaha, they can't get them
there.

These are my quickly thought up hypothetical reasons. Some might even
be true

del cecchi

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:13:59 -0600, Del Cecchi
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

6. Nothing wrong with Optimax but some folks want 4 strokes and Merc
needs to have them. Since they are suing Yamaha, they can't get them
there.

Anybody want to wager that in the next couple of months - maybe six at
the most - Verado problems with the D/A interface and their fly by
wire control system will surpass OMCs FICHT problems?

Later,

Tom

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:13:59 -0600, Del Cecchi
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~


6. Nothing wrong with Optimax but some folks want 4 strokes and Merc
needs to have them. Since they are suing Yamaha, they can't get them
there.


Anybody want to wager that in the next couple of months - maybe six at
the most - Verado problems with the D/A interface and their fly by
wire control system will surpass OMCs FICHT problems?

Later,

Tom

I don't want to actually bet anything Tom:-) Life itself is a big
enough gamble for me:-) but I'm happy to pretend:-) "yeah my bucko, well
I'll bet ya" the 4 strokes in general will be OK from a technology stand
point.

The Verado is a bit interesting, at least to us anyway, given that they
could have easily & it seems cheaply turned to the alloy GM straight 6
which easily puts out 250+ HP in it's 4 ltr form, no supercharger none
of that. For whatever reason Merc have chosen to go their own way in the
core engine, block etc, to drastically reduce the displacement then make
the HP back up with a supercharger, curious approach we say.
Particularly given the longstanding, hugely successful relationship
between Merc & GM but............. as I said the real technology is all
well known & well tested stuff from the rough & tumble of consumer GM cars.

I think the Verados are now down to a 4 cyl 135HP???? (not sure) if so
then the same "family" style of design might have something to do with
their plans. So now the range is almost completely covered with 4 strokes???

The high revving, multi valve, variable cam timing part is all GM & the
supercharging is also well proven straight GM technology.

The electronics are also pretty tame; these days the GM engines come
almost stand alone, the engine management box & just about all else
needed to run is on the engine itself, not buried off in the cabin
somewhere or a separate box; so that will work.

The fly by wire throttle etc??? GM have had a problem with their
throttle bodies for some time now, they've used an electronically,
direct from the engine management box, operated air bypass for idle
speed control & it's been "problematic", so the fly by wire throttle
control is just more of the same & maybe an attempt to resolve the known
issues with the bypass system??? It's in the cars too of course.

What is for sure is that by going their own way with the core engine,
it's cost Brunswick/Merc a bundle & they're trying to get the price of
all OBs in general up to cover it.

Ficht, Optimax & E-Tec are all dead (E-Tec still born:-)), you can't
run engines at power when lean, a well known & understood fact since the
30s, it's just basic rocket science, the very same problem. So I accept
you don't believe me but do you believe nasa???

Add into all three very poor atomisation from not enough injection
pressure & it's worse.

Then with Ficht & E-Tec add inaccurate loony tunes continuous spark
ignition when in lean mode & it's hopeless.

Then with Ficht & E-Tec add the most dangerous oiling system since VRO
& consumer usage failures are assured.

If the lean mixtures at power don't get 'em, the poor fuel atomisation,
inaccurate spark timing or lack of proper lubrication will.

K

Been busy today so I'll keep the Krause lie of the day short.

This lying simpleton, after it became clear he was losing a thread
where he was displaying his usual lack of patriotism much less gratitude
for the brave men & women out there risking their
everything, to keep the likes of him safe, he just reverts to type.

But seriously can you imagine this uneducated union thug now claims he
is reviewing universities!!! & wait for it he poo poos the engineering
course!!! this from a lying uneducated union thug who couldn't use a
toaster without a union authorised electrician in attendance.

I've included just one of the followup responses but it was such a bald
faced lie it even embarrassed the rejoinders:-)


I have visited West Point, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy and
the sub training facility at Groton. Some years ago, I actually did look
over descriptions of some of the course material at Annapolis and the
c.v.'s of some of the faculty. I'm sure the engineering course material
is fairly rigorous, though it is more "trade-oriented" and did not look
up to MIT or CalTech standards. I mean, if your goal is to be an
aeronautical engineer, you're going to get better training at MIT or
CalTech or at any of a large number of other engineering schools. I
thought the faculty academic credentials no better than what is found at
a typical smaller four year public university. The military academies
turn out military officers with an education, not highly educated
military officers. But that is their purpose, eh?



--


Holy molly, grandma, put on your high boots.


Harry Krause, admitted graduate in the humanities with a degree in English
is hereby qualified to critique the engineering curriculum of not only West
Point, but also that of the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy and
compare it to that of MIT and CalTech.


The above paragraph is a classic.


You missed your calling Harry.