BCITORGB wrote:
TnT says:
========
JC goes to Washington, and I am His news media spokesman. You ask me
what He is up to, and I with my inside info try to keep you informed.
Does this work for you?

If so, Why don't you start the first chapter. TnT
===========

In essence, we've strarted the first chapter. I asked about JC's
position on capital punishment. What I'm curious about, heathen that
I
am, can we find anything in the bible which shows JC to have been for
or against capital punishment. My impression is that advocating for
capital punishment would inconsistent with everything (very little, I
admit) I've ever read about JC.

So, you're the Christian, you tell me.

frtzw906

This being JC's first day in Washington, and having not even got His
office established, He is immediately faced with the difficult issue of
capital punishment, and whether it should be allowed or not, for civil
authorities to condemn men to death, and execute them.

JC being a part of the inner circle of the Godhood, and being privvy to
the inner workings, and being present and actively involved at the time
of the Creation, Loves His Creation with an Infinite Love. It
greviously distresses Him to see men killing men. Whether on the
battlefield, or the back alley, or the abortion table, or the death row
cell. That we can justify spending billions to build a new nuclear
submarine that can pack more destructive energy inside its own hull
than was dropped in the entirety of the second world war, and yet
cannot see our way clear to build more and bigger wharehouses to store
individuals who have proved their inability to live peaceably with
their neighbor, seems contraditory!

JC hates killing, and in particular the kind that is called murder. As
a state legislator He even wrote laws to that effect, "Thou shalt not
murder!". Now as a congressmen in Washington, everyone is watching to
see what he will advocate, and do, to solve the perplexing issues that
Washington faces.

His general position is well known, and referred to as the "higher
laws," though that is a bit nebulous, it has a nice ring to it. All
politicians, being politicians, love to appear to take the high road,
and to not be accused of taking the low road through life. Ironically,
most all politicians have taken the low road to get to Washington! JC
being the only unigue example in recorded history to have, in fact,
done so by actually taking the High road.

Most politicians also recognize the advantage of being able to say that
JC is on their side, and supports their cause. Because of His sterling
reputation, many various lobbist and special interest groups are
putting a lot of pressure on Him to make a decision regarding capital
punishment that would support their cause.

Those who are interested in building bigger boats want the limited
money spent on their pet projects, instead of building bigger
wharehouses. This gives them ample opportunity to pocket a little on
the side. Sometimes they shadow their interest with the diversion, that
these individual that are beyond reformation, should just be
eliminated, and so save a bunch of the taxpayers money. Ironically all
of the various lobbist, have their special interest, and it eventually
always comes down to money, and where it should be spent, and where it
should be cut. But all the money will be spent, and the taxpayers will
not save any money after all.

Very few are actually interested in penal reform, or concern for the
inmate on death row. Many of those who are infavor of building bigger
and better wharehouses, are not so much interested trully in the
inmate, as in maintaining their own cushy job of spending a lot of
money on their own pet projects, whereby a certain amount finds itself
into their pockets as well. However it does make them feel better to
say they care!

JC having created every living soul, and knowing their very heart,
knows that each of these individuals that are being held on death row
are not beyond reformation, and knowing that the very lobbist and
politicians that are protesting and advocating certain actions, some
for and some against, have all kinds of ulterior motives.

Their hearts are no better than the heart of these murders. The
politicians, possibly even having committed murder to get to the very
hallowed halls from which they now jostle each other! The only
difference being they did not get caught! Like a bunch of wild
animals, willing to devour each other, if someone only gets in their
way. However even the animals don't kill without cause, usually because
they are hungry, and none of these fatcat politicians look very hungry!

JC sat down near the end of the day, knowing that He had to make a
decision, and contemplating what he should do. In light of the sorry
state of the legal system, which is another issue for another chapter,
it currently takes twenty years for a deathrow inmate to exhaust all of
his appeals, JC came up with the following law.

"For each inmate on death row, and for all those who are concerned
about a specific inmate, each must visit the particular inmate every
day for the twenty, 20 years of his detention while waiting for
appeals, and get to know the inmate intimately. After these 20 years,
those who meet the requirement of having been there every day during
the 20 years, and having made the effort to get to know the inmate
intimately, will be given the opportunity to present their case to the
rest of those who have as well met the above criteria.

Then they will all vote as to whether the inmate, having lost his
appeals, will be put to death if the simple majority of those who care
enough to have met the above criteria, decide that this would be best
for society at large, and the call for justice in general.

Be it understood, that JC, though He is very busy with His hectic
schedule in Washington, being God, plans to meet with each inmate on
death row, each day of their 20 year internment, and will not only act
as their attorney through out the appeal process, but at the required
meeting after 20 years of all other trully concerned parties, in which
He will act as an advocate for grace and forgiveness, toward the
inmate. Since He knows the inmate intimately and has been working in
the inmates heart to change the thoughts and intents of the inmates
heart, the inmate knows that he has the opportunity to change the
direction of his life, and often infact there is evidence of a
miraculous change in the inmate that is obvious to all.

Be it also understood that JC will be working everyday for those 20
years, in the hearts of all the truly concerned parties, who in most
cases are not much different than the inmate. To change their hearts
and minds, and to fill them with compassion and understanding toward
all their fellow men, and specifically, forgiveness toward the death
row inmate who offended them so grieviously.

IF after all this, the vote is to put the inmate to death, the
authorities are ordered to exercise the civil law, and order the
capital punishment of the inmate!

This expression of the Higher Law should be put into effect
immediately, and all men subject to its enforcement. "

JC having had a busy day of interacting with all the various politician
and lobbist, and having totally exhausted his staff, encouraged us all
to go home and rest, because we have a busy day tomorrow.

However for Himself, being full of energy, and with His great
compassion, set it upon Himself to go out and check on the wellfare of
all the current inmates in all the jails in all the world, as well as
all the current concerned parties, and unconcerned parties, and all
other individuals in the whole world as well. He having made this His
practice since the beginning of time anyway, does not find the
enforcement of the Higher law puts any overwhelming strain or burden on
His regimen. Actually He is glad to get more people actively involved
in this work of reforming mens hearts, and truly concerned about those
who have been lost in the hopelessness of prison.

JC is now looking forward to His next day in Washington, knowing that
good and God will prevail!

This report is filed by TnT 3/5/05

Tink on behalf of JC opines:
============
For each inmate on death row, and for all those who are concerned
about a specific inmate, each must visit the particular inmate every
day for the twenty, 20 years of his detention while waiting for
appeals, and get to know the inmate intimately. After these 20 years,
those who meet the requirement of having been there every day during
the 20 years,...
==================

Hey, Tink, that's an interesting twist. I'm not sure it's quite in the
spirit of my proposition to you (I was hoping to keep the answers a bit
more "clinical": you cite the scripture that you hope to use to make
JC's case for him.).

Nonetheless, as I said, a twist. I've always maintained that, if a
society is going to permit capital punishment, then the "hangman" ought
to be chosen, at random, from the citizenry. My point, if you really
think you, chosen at random from the citizenry, could look the convict
in the eyes, while pulling the switch at an electrocution, then you'd
vote for capital punishment. Those who could not, themselves, do the
job, would vote against capital punishment. But, that's another issue.

But back to our "story" Tink: let's keep it simple by not assuming
lengthy appeals. What then? Where's the scripture we need to make this
decision?

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink on behalf of JC opines:
============
For each inmate on death row, and for all those who are concerned
about a specific inmate, each must visit the particular inmate every
day for the twenty, 20 years of his detention while waiting for
appeals, and get to know the inmate intimately. After these 20 years,
those who meet the requirement of having been there every day during
the 20 years,...
==================

Hey, Tink, that's an interesting twist. I'm not sure it's quite in
the
spirit of my proposition to you (I was hoping to keep the answers a
bit
more "clinical": you cite the scripture that you hope to use to make
JC's case for him.).

Nonetheless, as I said, a twist. I've always maintained that, if a
society is going to permit capital punishment, then the "hangman"
ought
to be chosen, at random, from the citizenry. My point, if you really
think you, chosen at random from the citizenry, could look the
convict
in the eyes, while pulling the switch at an electrocution, then
you'd
vote for capital punishment. Those who could not, themselves, do the
job, would vote against capital punishment. But, that's another
issue.

But back to our "story" Tink: let's keep it simple by not assuming
lengthy appeals. What then? Where's the scripture we need to make
this
decision?

frtzw906

I would suggest that you ask specific questions as in a news briefing,
and I will respond with specific scriptures. That will help me stay on
topic, and I will not send you a boat load of scriptures that do not
address the specific question you are interested in. As you know, I
have a very large boat! TnT

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink on behalf of JC opines:
============
For each inmate on death row, and for all those who are concerned
about a specific inmate, each must visit the particular inmate every
day for the twenty, 20 years of his detention while waiting for
appeals, and get to know the inmate intimately. After these 20 years,
those who meet the requirement of having been there every day during
the 20 years,...
==================

Hey, Tink, that's an interesting twist. I'm not sure it's quite in
the
spirit of my proposition to you (I was hoping to keep the answers a
bit
more "clinical": you cite the scripture that you hope to use to make
JC's case for him.).

Nonetheless, as I said, a twist. I've always maintained that, if a
society is going to permit capital punishment, then the "hangman"
ought
to be chosen, at random, from the citizenry. My point, if you really
think you, chosen at random from the citizenry, could look the
convict
in the eyes, while pulling the switch at an electrocution, then
you'd
vote for capital punishment. Those who could not, themselves, do the
job, would vote against capital punishment. But, that's another
issue.

But back to our "story" Tink: let's keep it simple by not assuming
lengthy appeals. What then? Where's the scripture we need to make
this
decision?

frtzw906

Frtwz, I just sent you a response to this post by you requesting
specific question, and then rereading your post, and see that you ask
such a question. Oops!

I am also having server problems and so not sure this will post when I
get done, but will try. If you get this then I guess the server started
working again.

Your question, would JC endorse capital punishment today? I have
included a few scriptures following:


Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for
in the image of God He made man.

God instituted the death penalty originally, in reference to Creation.
Murder is an affront to God, who created us in His image. If some one
kills a man, it is as if he is trying to kill God! God says that man
should die!

Rom 13:1-2 Let every person be in subjection to the governing
authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which
exist are established by God. Therefore, he who resists authority has
opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive
condemnation upon themselves.
Rom 13:3-4 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but
for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good,
and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to
you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not
bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who
brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.

In the current era, God affirmed the continuing authority of civil
government, and that we need to be subject to that authority, which
included punishment for evil deeds, some of that punisnment
accomplished with the sword, implying death. Same theme in following
verses.


1 Pet 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human
institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors
as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those
who do right.

So, yes I believe that Jesus would endorse the death penalty today as
He has through out the ages. TnT

....stuff deleted
Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for
in the image of God He made man.

God instituted the death penalty originally, in reference to Creation.
Murder is an affront to God, who created us in His image. If some one
kills a man, it is as if he is trying to kill God! God says that man
should die!


No god I'd believe in would do such a thing. Even the "wrathful and
vengeful" god of the old testament
allowed Cain to wander free (but marked). Yet another reason why I doubt
the "scriptures" were written
by anyone but ordinary men.

....justification for murder deleted

Rick

Tink says:
============
Gen 9:6
=============

my biblical knowledge may be weak, but doesn't this bit pre-date jc?

frtzw906

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Tink says:
============
Gen 9:6
=============

my biblical knowledge may be weak, but doesn't this bit pre-date jc?

frtzw906

Not if you accept the idea of the trinity.

Mark --jesus, like 3 in 1 oil, is all purpose--

bearsbuddy says:
==============
Not if you accept the idea of the trinity.
==================

so.... if i accept the trinity, then timelines become irrelevant? is
the trinity some kind of timemachine?

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
============
Gen 9:6
=============

my biblical knowledge may be weak, but doesn't this bit pre-date jc?

frtzw906

No, He was back there in the beginning! Being God, He is a part of the
Eternal Godhood that the Judeo-Christian faith proclaims, and has been
revealed through out history to all men everywhere! TnT

Rick wrote:
...stuff deleted
Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed,
for
in the image of God He made man.

God instituted the death penalty originally, in reference to
Creation.
Murder is an affront to God, who created us in His image. If some
one
kills a man, it is as if he is trying to kill God! God says that
man
should die!


No god I'd believe in would do such a thing. Even the "wrathful and
vengeful" god of the old testament
allowed Cain to wander free (but marked). Yet another reason why I
doubt
the "scriptures" were written
by anyone but ordinary men.

...justification for murder deleted

Rick

It is your choice to believe in whatever kind of god you choose to
believe in. Your choice does not determine what kind of God the
scriptures reveal. That it makes you uncomfortable, or even that it is
difficult to explain, does not make it any more encumbent on us, if we
choose to attempt to understand the nature of God, and His activity
throughout history, some of which is recorded in the Scriptures, to
struggle to understand and find the real and true God with which we
have to deal.

The scriptures are clear when they say that God instituted the death
penalty clear back in the beginning of Genesis. He with His
omniscience, He saw the murder of Abel, and all the other murders
throughout history. If we are offended by one murder, consider the
horror He must have seen, and how His Holy Spirit must have been
offended and affronted by even one, to say nothing of the horror of
them all.

How was it that He was able to allow Cain to walk as a marked man even?
In His absolute Holiness, He should have destroyed not only Cain, but
all murders. And according to Jesus, all of us are guilty of murder.
This is not the vengeful God of the Old Testement, but the God of the
New Testement that said we should Love our neighbor, as ourselves. How
could Jesus say we are all murders? He said if we even look on our
brother in wrath, we are guilty of murder. And if this is so, and Jesus
is God, the same Holy God of the Old Testement, and even before the Old
Testement, the time of Cain and Abel, how could He not destroy us all?

It was because in His omniscience He also was able to look down through
the annals of time and see Himself on the Cross, dying the death
penalty for all the murderers, all of us through out history. And so He
set Cain free as a marked man, as we are all marked men.

The death penalty does not diminish His Love for us in the least, but
is the absolute expression of His Love. By establishing the death
penalty way back in Genesis, He set the stage for His own death on the
Cross, the single greatest act of Love ever shown to men by which now
we can be set free! Free to be in communion again with God!

But understand that it was not just an act of Love for us, His
Creation, that He died! But even a greater act of Love towards the
Holiness of the Godhood! The image of God, was redeemed by the Blood
of Jesus which represented His death, the required price for the
defacement of the Godhood, was made by Jesus.

You may not choose this God, that is your choice! But Jesus chose this
God, and I tend to believe His choice is the better choice than yours,
any day, Old Testement, New Testement, testimony written in the stars,
or in the rocks, or sands of time, or pages written by fallible men.
All the Creation testifies to the nature of God, that He is, and that
He is the rewarder of them who diligently seek Him.

That you say you believe in a god is commendable, or did you? And would
only confirms to me that you were made in the image of God. There is a
primal need in the heart of all men to find and be in communion with
God. If you are content with the rag doll god that you say you would
believe in if you believed in god, is at best, intellectually slothful,
and at worst derranged. Those who say they do not believe in God, and
don't even make a pretense of believing, are slothful, and at least may
appear to be intellectually honest if you allow them the luxury of
shutting their eyes to the Creation. But you say your eyes are open, or
are they closed!

It would be sort of like walking into a mine field, where there are
known to be many life threatening devices. Now a mad man may run into
the field headlong, and assuredly will step on a mine. But what man
would put on a blindfold and start walking ever so slowly. Even he will
trip a mine eventually. Now the intellectual slouch may set on the side
and talk about the mines, and how they know they are out there, and
even study all the different kinds of mines there are. But should he
step into the mine field, he is just as assuredly dead. And we are
surrounded by a minefield that we are trying to get out of!

The wise man climbs on the back of someone who has gone across the mine
field before, and knows the way, and where all the mines are at, and
gets safe passage to the other side, which is where everyone wants to
get to after all.

Now I can't tell whether you believe in God or not, but I would
encourage you to at least be honest with yourself, take off the
blindfold of your preconceived ideas of how God would be, and find out
how He is, and then you will find Him! TnT