On 10-Feb-2005, Melissa wrote:

It's a small start, but here's a project I'm following with great
interest:

http://www.haveblue.com/

Small is the key word. The amount of hydrogen (and hence electricity)
you can generate will always be less than the amount of sunlight/wind
you can capture. Boats currently use batteries to save power from
sun/wind and don't get much total power. Hydrogen + fuel cell is
just an expensive version of a battery.

Hydrogen technologies are mostly hype, unfortunately.

Mike

On 10-Feb-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

are trying to export that what they call "democracy".

Wah. Democracy works. Socialism doesn't.

The irony is that you didn't even get what he said.

We care deeply what you think. We just think you're deluded and oppressed,
and we want to educate you about the benefits of representative democracy
and capitalism, which is what makes the US the most powerful, influential
and free nation on the planet.

So Americans are free and everyone else is oppressed? I guess you've never
read the Patriot Act of other gross abuses of freedom. American influence
is waning because of your arrogance and gradually declining economic status.
100 years ago, Britain was the world power; fifty years later it was broke
and losing influence. Why should anyone believe the yanks will last any
longer given that they pay almost no attention to the reality of what's
going on around them?

To assume that the US is the only free and democratic nation is both naive
and a grotesque misrepresentation of facts.

Mike

On 11-Feb-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

That is a pretty big generalization for someone who is only one
small voice in Europe. It sounded to me like you were speaking for a
whole lot of Euro voices, and others.

Well, if you bother to listen to the rest of the world, you'll discover
that Wilko's view is not uncommon in many other countries.

I listen to English language radio broadcasts from many countries,
including the Netherlands, Sweden, Czech Republic, South Africa etc.
In fact, Radio Australia is on right now. There is a voice out there
beyond America - you just have to listen.

Mike

On 10-Feb-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

Are you stating that merely because conservatives of various political and
religious persuasions work steadily and organize to achieve their common
political objectives that this makes them all members of the "Christian
Right?"

No but Viguerie includes the Christian Right in the groups that he lumps
together. They exist as organized groups that are able to be represented
when they whole mess work together.

Are you claiming that there is no Christian Right? All Christians are
left wingers?

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:

On 10-Feb-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:


are trying to export that what they call "democracy".

Wah. Democracy works. Socialism doesn't.


The irony is that you didn't even get what he said.

Alas, that's not an uncommon occurrance with him and my remarks. That's
why I've stopped bothering to respond to anything Scott spouts.

So Americans are free and everyone else is oppressed? I guess you've never
read the Patriot Act of other gross abuses of freedom. American influence
is waning because of your arrogance and gradually declining economic status.
100 years ago, Britain was the world power; fifty years later it was broke
and losing influence. Why should anyone believe the yanks will last any
longer given that they pay almost no attention to the reality of what's
going on around them?

My guess is that within my lifetime that becomes very clear to everyone,
even to the portion of the U.S. population that seems to have little
idea about the existance of the world around them.

I wonder who's next in playing the world's most dominant economy and
military power. My bet is on Asia... Maybe our grandchildren will speak
fluent Mandarin (or some other fruit) or Spanish as their main language? ;-)

To assume that the US is the only free and democratic nation is both naive
and a grotesque misrepresentation of facts.

Today I got this sent to me by a Czech friend, who apologized because
she know I have friends from the U.S.. I thought it was funny and in a
way I think it's relevant to this discussion:

---------------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE

To the citizens of the United States of America,

In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to
govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your
independence, effective today. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II
will resume monarchial duties over all states, commonwealths and other
territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime
minister (The Right Honourable Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who
have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders)
will appoint a minister for America without the need for further
elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.

A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of
you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following
rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Then look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be
amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. The letter 'U'
will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour', skipping
the letter 'U' is nothing more than laziness on your part. Likewise, you
will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. You
will end your love affair with the letter 'Z' (pronounced 'zed' not
'zee') and the suffix "ize" will be replaced by the suffix "ise". You
will learn that the suffix 'burgh is pronounced 'burra' e.g. Edinburgh.
You are welcome to respell Pittsburgh as 'Pittsberg' if you can't cope
with correct pronunciation. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary
to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven
words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is
an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up
"interspersed". There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer
show. If you're not old enough to cope with bad language then you
shouldn't have chat shows. When you learn to develop your vocabulary
then you won't have to use bad language as often.

2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know on
your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take
account of the reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of "-ize".

3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents.
It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to Cockney,
upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). You will also have to
learn how to understand regional accents - Scottish dramas such as
"Taggart" will no longer be broadcast with subtitles. While we're
talking about regions, you must learn that there is no such place as
Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon". If you persist
in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g.
Texasshire, Floridashire, Louisianashire.

4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the
good guys. Hollywood will be required to cast English actors to play
English characters. British sit-coms such as "Men Behaving Badly" or
"Red Dwarf" will not be re-cast and watered down for a wishy-washy
American audience who can't cope with the humour of occasional political
incorrectness.

5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The
Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you
to get confused and give up half way through.

6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind
of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good
game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your
borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You
will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper
football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It
is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed
to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not
involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar
body armour like nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US
rugby sevens side by 2005. You should stop playing baseball. It is not
reasonable to host an event called the 'World Series' for a game which
is not played outside of America. Since only 2.15% of you are aware that
there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable.
Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called
"rounders" which is baseball without fancy team strip, oversized gloves,
collector cards or hotdogs.

7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if
they give you any merde. The 97.85% of you who were not aware that there
is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The
Russians have never been the bad guys. "Merde" is French for "****". You
will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns. You will no longer be
allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous in public than a
vegetable peeler. Because we don't believe you are sensible enough to
handle potentially dangerous items, you will require a permit if you
wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 8th will be a new
national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecisive Day".

9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your
own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we
mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts. You will
start driving on the left with immediate effect. At the same time, you
will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of
conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand
the British sense of humour.

10. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French
fries are not real chips. Fries aren't even French, they are Belgian
though 97.85% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in
Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Those things you
insist on calling potato chips are properly called "crisps". Real chips
are thick cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to
chips is beer which should be served warm and flat. Waitresses will be
trained to be more aggressive with customers.

11. As a sign of penance 5 grams of sea salt per cup will be added to
all tea made within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, this quantity to
be doubled for tea made within the city of Boston itself.

12. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually
beer at all, it is lager. From November 1st only proper British Bitter
will be referred to as "beer", and European brews of known and accepted
provenance will be referred to as "Lager". The substances formerly known
as "American Beer" will henceforth be refered to as "Near-Frozen Knat's
Urine", with the exception of the product of the American Budweiser
company whose product will be referred to as "Weak Near-Frozen Knat's
Urine". This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last
1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.

13. From November 1st the UK will harmonise petrol (or "Gasoline" as you
will be permitted to keep calling it until April 1st 2001) prices with
the former USA. The UK will harmonise its prices to those of the former
USA and the Former USA will, in return, adopt UK petrol prices (roughly
$6/US gallon - get used to it).

14. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns,
lawyers or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and
therapists shows that you're not adult enough to be independent. Guns
should only be handled by adults. If you're not adult enough to sort
things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist then you’re
not grown up enough to handle a gun.

15. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.

Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to
ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776).

Thank you for your cooperation.

---------------------------------------------------------------

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Michael Daly wrote:
On 11-Feb-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

That is a pretty big generalization for someone who is only one
small voice in Europe. It sounded to me like you were speaking for
a
whole lot of Euro voices, and others.

Well, if you bother to listen to the rest of the world, you'll
discover
that Wilko's view is not uncommon in many other countries.

I listen to English language radio broadcasts from many countries,
including the Netherlands, Sweden, Czech Republic, South Africa etc.
In fact, Radio Australia is on right now. There is a voice out there
beyond America - you just have to listen.

Mike

Fact is when 10:00 news comes on I will often watch CH12 which is BBC,
just for a different perspective. I use to really enjoy Dollywall (sp?)
I currently try to review numerous internet news sites from the world.
But it seems that mostly I find 1 or 2 min sound bites, all coming from
the same wire service. Seems that Americans are not the only one with
short attention span.

An example is the tsunami. I told my wife that within two months you
would have trouble finding an international news article about it. Same
with so many other crisis type stories. On the other hand try finding a
story that has to do with the everyday life of some unknown in some
remote part of the world, like Canada. Also very difficult. That is why
I find discussions with the NG enlightening, you all are real people.
Not just some journalist figment of imagination. Sometimes the realness
rubs the wrong way, but we can work around that. TnT

Michael Daly wrote:
On 10-Feb-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

Are you stating that merely because conservatives of various
political and
religious persuasions work steadily and organize to achieve their
common
political objectives that this makes them all members of the
"Christian
Right?"

No but Viguerie includes the Christian Right in the groups that he
lumps
together. They exist as organized groups that are able to be
represented
when they whole mess work together.

Are you claiming that there is no Christian Right? All Christians
are
left wingers?

Mike

Mike, I live here in Denver, only a short distance from Colorado
Springs, and Focus on the Family. During the recent election, noone
ever knocked on our door. I did receive a few calls, reminding me to
vote. Not necessarily right or left, just vote.

Nationally Colorado voted for Bush, but locally, we voted blue. The
Statehouse was taken over in both the Senate and House by Dems, and we
sent two new dems to the US Congress. If the FC's were such a powerful
and overwhelming force in poitics, you would think they would have more
sway here at home. But we are a really confused lot here in Colorado,
must be the high altitude!

Fact of the matter, there is a growing number of Christians involved in
the political process but they are not all right wing conservatives,
just willing to be active and involved, and can make alot of "noise".
The media loves noise, gives them something to talk about. TnT

TnT said:
==============
But I also know that some bearded warlord in Afganistan does affect us
as well. I suspect that was part of the biggest shock to many Americans
on 9/11. Our bubble burst. We all live in a world where we affect one
another.
=================

I don't mean to appear callous, but I think part of the problem lies
with a nation that has lived virtually untouched by the reast of the
world for 2 centuries. A nation that could afford to practice
isolationist policies. When your "bubble burst", you couldn't believe
it. And you likely over-reacted (see other posts putting the
casualities into perspective -- and I truly mean no disrespect to the
innocent victims of the bearded warlord).

Other nations, not isolated from neighbors by a huge ocean, better
understand the interconnectedness. By all means, go after the warlord
(as you know, most other nations supported you in those efforts). But
don't try to con the world into believing that a secular dictator has
anything in common with a religious fundamentalist (in this case, I'm
referring to Osama) who despises secularism. That, and WMD were thinly
veiled excuses to gain control of oil.

TnT says:
===============
That does not mean that we should just go along with the other parts of
the world, but that we should attempt to influence them with what we
believe.
==================

That's a tad arrogant, don't you think? When should I expect American
troops strolling down my boulevard and knocking on my door so as to
"influence" me to "believe" in the American dream?

Cheers,
frtzw906

TnT says:
===============
You say though that we are out of step with the prevailing global
position. Can you share what you feel that opinion generally would
amount to. I have heard so much scuttlebut about left and right, red an
blue, that I am interested in your fresh insight. That way we could
discuss specifics.
==================

There is too much to comment on. Let's start by recalling polling done
in many (I can only assume all) western, developed nations. In not one
poll did the people of these nations prefer Bush over Kerry. In fact,
had the election been global, it would have been a clear landslide for
the Democrats.

As to specifics, there are too many to mention. Here's a few (comparing
Republican doctrine with prevailing western attitudes outside of the
USA): abortion, capital punishment, decriminalization of recreational
drugs, gay unions, possession of unnecessay firearms, Kyoto,..... and
on, and on, and on....

Cheers,
frtzw906
==========

Scott Weiser says:
============
representative democracy and capitalism are the most effective way to
ensure liberty, freedom and justice for all.
================

Like the Queen of Hearts, you are free to define words anyway you
please. And, yes, I know that you Americans have your own specific
definition of "representative democracy". I'd like to suggest,
however, that you're playing fast and loose with the definition of
"representative".

You've had elections where a significant proportion of your electorate
(hundreds of thousands? millions? you're the American, you'll know the
exact data.) voted Green in the hope that their view of the world would
be represented in your Congress. But the system of government your hold
up as praiseworthy disrespects the ballots of Green voters. How is that
representative?

Or, even more dramatically, in recent history, how was your process
"representative" when it ignored the wishes of millions who cast
ballots for Ross Perot and the Reform Party.

I accept your answer if you tell me that that's the American system,
that all candidates and parties are aware of the system, and that
everyone has to live with the consequences of that system. Fair enough!
It's YOUR system.

But please don't hold it up as an ideal. Please don't presume to
lecture, for example, the Germans, about "representatve" democracy.
You'll note that the voices of Greens and Perot-like politicians in
German are heard in their parliament. Maybe, one day, when you bring
your system into the 20th century (never mind the 21st), others will
listen.

"Representative" indeed!

Cheers,
frtzw906