John Fereira typed:

[lotsa good advice]


And finally (without questioning the wisdom of the whole operaton --
putting novices in ill-equipped boats in potentially fatal conditions)
I wonder why you cannot use one or two of the other students, who are
still IN their boats, to help.

Yeh, sure they are all novice boaters, but typically one or more of
them will be competant and confidant in physical activities, won't
they? Have yer two most confident and stable students raft up, get one
end of the victim boat up on their raft, and then you can paddle about
that assemblage to do whatever must be done.

But the easiest highly effective solution, if you are working without
spraydecks, is to just two- or three-centimeter (diameter) drain
*holes* through the top deck at each end. Then you don't have to lift
all that weight of water at one time to shift it toward the cockpit;
just lift the downhill end a few millimeters at a time; as long as you
lift the interior waterlevel a hair above the exterior waterlevel, it
will drain.

'Course, if these are multi-use boats which are sometimes used with
speardecks, you will need to install drainplugs rather than just drill
holes. But for yer novice classes, when you must, you can easily reach
beneath a capsized boat to open the plug.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Never thought of using the drain plug (hangs head in shame). Not sure I
could actually get the drain plug clear of the water, but hell I'll
give it a try

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:

Never thought of using the drain plug (hangs head in shame). Not sure I
could actually get the drain plug clear of the water, but hell I'll
give it a try

You don't need to. :-)

If a swamped boat is in the water, reach under water and open the drain
plug. Lifting the boat out of the water slowly, starting at the end
opposite to the drain hole will cause the water to pour out through the
hole anyway, even if you can't lift it completely out of the water so
that the drain plug clears the water.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Never thought of using the drain plug (hangs head in shame). Not sure
I
could actually get the drain plug clear of the water, but hell I'll
give it a try

As Wilko typed, you don't need to! Consider:

If the bow is lifted up, sitting on the deck of one of the other
students, and you are at the stern and have unscrewed the plug, the
stern will probably be floating four or five inches below water-level.
But YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LIFT THE DRAIN OUT OF THE WATER for it to work.
Lift the stern 1/2 inch and the waterling INSIDE will be 1/2 inch above
the waterline OUTSIDE, and that 1/2 inch of water will drain out. Now
raise the stern another 1/2 inch, and that much more water will drain
out.

In other words, you do not have to lift the weight of ALL the water at
one time; just lift a little at a time. 'Course, you WILL have to lift
most of the weight of the kayak along with that 1/2 inch of water...


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in
oups.com:

John Fereira typed:

[lotsa good advice]


And finally (without questioning the wisdom of the whole operaton --
putting novices in ill-equipped boats in potentially fatal conditions)
I wonder why you cannot use one or two of the other students, who are
still IN their boats, to help.

Good point. I took a rescue skills class at a skills symposium a few years
ago taught by Nigel Dennis (for those that don't know the name he's the
designer and owner of NDK kayaks. The NDK Romany is probably one of the
most popular expedition touring kayaks on the market). In any case, for the
scoop rescue, one paddler would perform the "scoop" of the victim while a
third would help stablize the rescuers boat. The rescue skills class was
quite good in general as it had us perform all kinds of variations that
might be useful under a variety of conditions, including low upper body
strength by the rescuer.

Yeh, sure they are all novice boaters, but typically one or more of
them will be competant and confidant in physical activities, won't
they? Have yer two most confident and stable students raft up, get one
end of the victim boat up on their raft, and then you can paddle about
that assemblage to do whatever must be done.

Again, a good point. During beginners classes I taught the instructor will
only demonstrate once (and if there are two instructors the other acts as
victim). After that the students are walked through rescues of each other.
This is especially useful couples taking the class together as they're most
likely going to be paddling with each other after the class.


But the easiest highly effective solution, if you are working without
spraydecks, is to just two- or three-centimeter (diameter) drain
*holes* through the top deck at each end. Then you don't have to lift
all that weight of water at one time to shift it toward the cockpit;
just lift the downhill end a few millimeters at a time; as long as you
lift the interior waterlevel a hair above the exterior waterlevel, it
will drain.

'Course, if these are multi-use boats which are sometimes used with
speardecks, you will need to install drainplugs rather than just drill
holes. But for yer novice classes, when you must, you can easily reach
beneath a capsized boat to open the plug.

I don't get this.

The goal of the class isn't to perform a successful rescue in the context of
the class setting. The goal of the class is, or at least should be, to
teach a skill that can be practiced, perfected, and called upon when
necessary if it really needed. Unless the students are going to be paddling
similar multi-use boats you can't very well asked them to drill holes in the
decks of their own boats to assist someone else in rescueing them. I don't
think I've ever seen a touring kayak that had drain plugs unless you count
recreational boats (which I don't in the touring category). I've only done
a small amount of whitewater kayaking so I have to ask how often an assisted
deep water rescue is used involving whitewater kayaks in real conditions.
My guess is almost never. Either the whitewater paddler learns how and
employs a roll or they swim, make their way to shore and collect the yard
sale floating down the river as best they can. If another boater is used an
assist for a resuce it's more likely going to be an assisted eskimo rescue
off their bow, or if it's a swimmer, a tow to shore. Furthermore, in the
case of recreational style kayaks that might be equipped with a drain plug
it is rare that you'll also find them equipped with float bags, and thus my
contention is that they should probably not be used further from shore than
one can swim if one insist on paddling in conditions that are likely to
cause a capsize in such a stable boat. Bottom line, assisted rescues skills
as taught in the OP's class are typicaly only going to be used by those
paddling in a sea kayak in deep water. If someone capsizes in a kayak 1/2
mile off shore in cold water it's mandatory that they get back in the boat
and upright and that's what these skills are supposed to teach.

It seems to me that the biggest problem here is the choice of kayaks used
for instruction and the reluctance of the shop to provide an assistant. It
doesn't sound like the boat models used are typical of the kind one would
paddle when an assisted rescue would ever be used. Even an assistant with a
minimal amount of experience but with greater arm strength should have not
trouble demonstrating the techniques. Having the assistant perform the demo
while the primary instructor talks through it would probably be a better
teaching technique anyway.

John Fereira wrote:
"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in
oups.com:

John Fereira typed:

[lotsa good advice]

[snip]

But the easiest highly effective solution, if you are working
without
spraydecks, is to just two- or three-centimeter (diameter) drain
*holes* through the top deck at each end. Then you don't have to
lift
all that weight of water at one time to shift it toward the
cockpit;
just lift the downhill end a few millimeters at a time; as long as
you
lift the interior waterlevel a hair above the exterior waterlevel,
it
will drain.

'Course, if these are multi-use boats which are sometimes used with
speardecks, you will need to install drainplugs rather than just
drill
holes. But for yer novice classes, when you must, you can easily
reach
beneath a capsized boat to open the plug.

I don't get this.

The goal of the class isn't to perform a successful rescue in the
context of
the class setting. The goal of the class is, or at least should be,
to
teach a skill that can be practiced, perfected, and called upon when
necessary if it really needed.

[snip]

Actually, if you read from the OPs first message, I think you will
agree that "to perform a successful rescue in the context of the class
setting" is EXACXTLY her goal. It sounds like she works for a buncha
cheapskates that follow no serious teaching standards (since they
refuse to provide a second instructor, or, at a minimum, an experienced
safety boater), from which I draw the further inference that this is
not a place to get serious kayak instruction, but a place that just
kinda sticks tourists on the water for a few hours so they can go home
and say they "went kayaking". The OP is trying to give her students
decent and safe instruction despite the more simply mercenary aims of
her employer. I think.

See also said they use Pyranha Master kayaks. These look to me like
whitewater boats (and appear to have drainplugs installed) and are
categorized as "Whitewater Range; School/Fleet" (i.e., I imagine, a
compromise between a whitewater and a rec boat) on the Pyranha website
(http://www.pyranha.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=48) and described this
way:

"The Master TG is something totally new and fresh, with modern looks
that will appeal to paddlers of all ages. It is designed for use as a
general purpose elementary kayak on rivers with small easy rapids,
lakes and coastal areas where full specification WW safety features are
not required. With it's unique optional 'Flexi-Skeg' system it is an
ideal instructional WW kayak or short distance flat-water touring
kayak.

"Designed using the very latest in modern features from the proven H3
and i3 series to optimize the learning experience. The TG has great
stability and an easy going feel combined with innovative ideas such as
the molded in carry handles, low maintenance adjustable outfitting and
full plate footrest ( deluxe model only ). The Master TG is a kayak
that only enhances peoples introduction to the sport and will prove to
be a very cost effective asset for any fleet or instructional user as
well as the general paddler.

Unless the students are going to be paddling similar multi-use boats
you
can't very well asked them to drill holes in the decks of their own
boats
to assist someone else in rescueing them. I don't think I've ever
seen a
touring kayak that had drain plugs unless you count recreational
boats
(which I don't in the touring category).

It's fairly clear that these are livery boats; these first timers
taking a "taster" course don't have boats of their own.

I've only done a small amount of whitewater kayaking so I have to ask
how
often an assisted deep water rescue is used involving whitewater
kayaks
in real conditions. My guess is almost never. Either the
whitewater
paddler learns how and employs a roll or they swim, make their way to
shore and collect the yard sale floating down the river as best they
can. If another boater is used an assist for a resuce it's more
likely
going to be an assisted eskimo rescue off their bow, or if it's a
swimmer, a tow to shore.

She also typed "[i]ts not sea kayaking, but flat water kayaking in
beginner boats...". I have the impression it is in a loch or a bay.
You are replying to an ideal situation, where people are taking serious
seakayaking lessons, so you expect safety and rescue techniques to be
included as part of the subject matter. She is in an entirely
different situation, I think, probably with only a half-day class in
which she can only cover the basics of making a boat go straight, and
has to provide all the safety by herself.

It seems to me that the biggest problem here is ... and the
reluctance
of the shop to provide an assistant.

Amen.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
.. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
.. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Oci-One - Bang on! this is exactly the sitation I am working in. In a
three hour session I have to give the clients a good time and a taste
for kayaking.in a remote location with no backup. These same clients
will not be returning there is no ongoing coaching process.

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Oci-One - Bang on! this is exactly the sitation I am working in. In a
three hour session I have to give the clients a good time and a taste
for kayaking.in a remote location with no backup. These same clients
will not be returning there is no ongoing coaching process.

Hi Chipscheeseand mayo.
I was not going to go there.
The rescue I told you about. "pulling the boat on its side close to
yours and emptying it out slowly " works well.
I used a local guide ( A petite and beautifull young lady who works for
O'Briens Tours in Bay Bulls ) She likely weighs about 110 Lbs.
She managed to rescue me after a little work.
The boats used were my Prijon T Slalom ( yes I am old )and a Perception
Dancer. both about the same or a little more akward than your WW boats.
None had floatation.
It works but is very akward.
The last part was a bow to stern rescue and I pretty much had her boat
down to the spray deck as I put all my weight there while turning into
my own cockpit.
The emptying program worked very well and the rescue in light wave
action would be no problem.

Bay Bulls Kayaking and O'Briens Boat tours have a strict 1 - 6 ratio.
They also have marine VHF and as they are a tour business they have a
FRC ( Fast Rescue Craft ) with twin Honda 90's to get to a problem. The
kayak guides are OK. We don't have a lot of BCU or Canadian CRCA
permeation into the guiding community yet. it is getting there.
Most spots are not as well covered for rescue help as Bay Bulls.
Cape Broyle has Stan Cook and he sticks with 1 - 6 or tries to.
We have some kayak safety guide lines for adventure racing that you may
be interested in. Drop me a line with Kayak in the subject bar and I
will send it to you.
Good Luck
Alex McGruer