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Paul, I did a section of the Red Deer, at lower water, but do
not know the names of any of the rapids. Can you post enough detail
so I know what section this story is about, and whether I've seen some
of the same section or river? I remember a riverwide ledge, which is
the only one we bank-scouted prior to running. Possibly the one you
call Gooseberry? A smallish river, clear water, very pretty in
places. Saw lots of wildlife, elk, wolf. Tom McCloud

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:05:24 GMT, "Paul Skoczylas"
wrote:

Red Deer River running high (but not stupid high)...

No big deal until Big Rock. Still getting over the year before's ass-kicking on the Kicking Horse, I decided to walk, with a number
of our beginners. But sit back and watch the carnage! There was the pair in the ducky, travelling with a raft company (why the
raft co. let them go in a ducky is a question I don't have an answer to). Right over the pourover at the start of the rapid! Swim
the rest.

Then there was the group of three people in two canoes. The pair in one was completely clueless. They avoided the pourover (which
really isn't difficult), but were unable to avoid the big waves and swamped. Swim. The solo canoeist really looked like he knew
what he was doing, nonchalantly and skillfully paddling around the pourover. But then, all he needed to do was put in two or three
good strokes to miss the big waves, and he never did... Maybe he wanted to ride them, but in an open canoe without floatation, I
wouldn't think that was a good idea. Swamp. Swim.

So, get down to Gooseberry. The raft company is there, and all but one make it through safely--even the pair in the ducky got
ejected but they did make it through. One raft is off line and gets stuck. Now for those who haven't paddled the Red Deer,
Gooseberry is a river-wide ledge, and the river is probably over 200 feet wide. There is an angled tongue down the centre, which
can be ridden at any water level. Some people will boof the left edge of the ledge as well. At high water, like it was that day,
the line is razor thin, and the consequences of being off line would be rather unpleasant (though a swimmer would be most likely be
spit out after a spin cycle or two). Once again, I walked. As I said, one raft missed the line (just barely) and got stuck in the
hole. All the passengers were ejected (a couple had some unpleasant recirculations in the hole for a few seconds which probably
seemed like a lifetime to the hapless swimmers) but the guide stayed in. And he stayed in for the full fifteen minutes that his
raft was stuck!! Apparently he was a very experienced guide who had never once flipped a raft--and he still didn't flip it.
Anyway, a couple rafts unsuccessfully tried to knock him out of the hole. One of our kayakers ran the drop with a throwbag in his
teeth, throwing it at the right moment--he hit the guide in the face with the bag, but the guide was unable to grab it! Then there
was the guide on shore trying (two or three times!) to hit the raft, 80-90 feet away, with his 60 foot throwbag... And glaring at
me for not trying to throw my bag!

So we get down to the Nationals site, where the raft company takes their customers for a swim off a small cliff. One decides it
would fun to attack one of kayakers... At first, we thought he was panicking and was just trying to get out of the water, but it
was soon obvious that he was just an a$$hole.

Eventually, we get to the takeout, where we saw the remains of the canoe that the guy was paddling solo. We later found out that he
had tried to line his boat through Gooseberry, and it got away from him... He actually tried to accuse people of stealign the gear
he had had tied into the boat!

An amazing day of crazy bravado...

(I missed the really crazy day of bravado, when the river was stupid-high...)

-Paul

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"Bob" ) writes:

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class,
they
tend to stick around.

"get through" as in "survive"? :)

More a matter of sticking to it. A lot of people discover they just don't
have the mental attitude necessary for the sport. It really is a sport that
is not for everyone.

Bob

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:

Virtually all of the people I paddle with have gone through some kind of
class. I highly recommend classes, even though I didn't have one to
start. I
learned very much when I started assisting classes that I should have
learned 10 years earlier. Students in our club classes learn all these
things in several weeks.

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class,
they
tend to stick around.

I also started out trying to learn how to paddle with a student club
with mostly inexperienced instructors (who were little more than newbies
themselves in many respects). I learned a lot through getting in trouble
and swimming out of it. It wasn't untill my first kayaking holiday (nine
months after I started kayaking) that I learned some real skills by
experienced instructors. I learned more in that one week than in the
previous nine months. Having picked up some bad habits in the mean time,
I also had to unlearn some things. :-(

Still, I learned a lot (in the past decade or so) about paddling through
trial and error. I just get better at getting out of the errors
unscathed. ;-)

I too learned a lot through trial and error. I learned to roll quickly.
Which was lucky, since I didn't have a solid left side brace until I got rid
of the feathered paddle more than a year later. Which ensured that I
practiced my roll a lot. Which resulted in it being pretty bombproof.

Our area club has had ACA certified instructors for quite a few years now.
They really do give excellent instruction, and on river trips they are often
close to 1/1 student/assistant ratio. It's a good way to learn, as I'm sure
any of the students would agree.

It does pay to make sure that the more experienced paddlers on trips you go
on know that you want suggestions. That's the continuing education that's
done the most for me.

Bob

"Bob" ) writes:

"get through" as in "survive"? :)

More a matter of sticking to it. A lot of people discover they just don't
have the mental attitude necessary for the sport. It really is a sport that
is not for everyone.

Just curious but how do you tell if they don't like the sport or just
don't like the lessons? (I know which it is I like.) And how do you
know they don't keep paddling on their own after dropping out of lessons?
Does some global paddling control organization follow up them through the
rest of their lives? Big brother, stationary orbital tracking, .... ?

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Melissa ) writes:

I think that paddling is one of those things that you know very
quickly, one way or the other, if you're going to really get into it
or not. I knew after my first one hour rental that it would be a
great passion of mine for the rest of my life. A feeling like that
doesn't lie! :-)

It sure helps a lot if you're not afraid of water.

--
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"Tom McCloud" wrote in message ...
Paul, I did a section of the Red Deer, at lower water, but do
not know the names of any of the rapids. Can you post enough detail
so I know what section this story is about, and whether I've seen some
of the same section or river? I remember a riverwide ledge, which is
the only one we bank-scouted prior to running. Possibly the one you
call Gooseberry? A smallish river, clear water, very pretty in
places. Saw lots of wildlife, elk, wolf. Tom McCloud

The Red Deer has many sections. The parts of interest to whitewater paddlers are all upstream of Sundre. The main section starts
where the Forestry Trunk Road crosses the river, at Mountain Aire Lodge. (AFAIK, that's the only currently existing bridge upstream
of Sundre.) Various take-outs are used. Gooseberry is the only significant river wide ledge on the main run. If you did the lower
section, near Coal Camp, there's a rapid called double ledge which is also significant--the river is much narrower and constricted.
I doubt anyone would see that section on the same run as Gooseberry--or it would be a very long day! At lower water, none of the
other rapids really have any significance. There might be a hole at the bottom of Big Rock (which is the first "real" rapid), but
it's probably playable.

Low water (depending on who you talk to) is anything below about 50 cms--I know people who are happy to run it at 30, but that seems
a waste of time to me. High water is anything over 80 or so cms. That day it was over 100 cms. (The year before, a group paddled
it over 200 cms, experiencing severe carnage...)

-Paul

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"Bob" ) writes:

"get through" as in "survive"? :)

More a matter of sticking to it. A lot of people discover they just
don't
have the mental attitude necessary for the sport. It really is a sport
that
is not for everyone.

Just curious but how do you tell if they don't like the sport or just
don't like the lessons? (I know which it is I like.) And how do you
know they don't keep paddling on their own after dropping out of lessons?
Does some global paddling control organization follow up them through the
rest of their lives? Big brother, stationary orbital tracking, .... ?

You can tell a lot by their response to the class river trips. Some people
are having a lot of fun. Others are petrified of everything. The second
group you tend to never run into on the river.

I guess I make assumptions based upon whether I see them again on the
rivers. Our club has a lot of trips on the schedule. Enthusiastic paddlers
usually use those trips to get out, to meet new paddling friends, and to
discover new rivers. Then, you also just run into them on the river. It's
not that big of a community, and certain rivers tend to draw crowds at
certain times. I am obviously operating on a subset of local paddlers. Those
that take lessons through the commercial operations may respond differently.
I do know that the club class I've helped with is an exceptionally
supportive environment to learn in.

Personally, I can't imagine not liking the lessons. They speed up the
learning process significantly, allowing people to paddle, brace, and roll
quickly and safely. This allow people to relax on the river, because they
know they can handle most problems early in their paddling career. They are
an excellent place to find paddlers with your same interests/inclinations. I
even know several couples who married after meeting in the classes.

Bob

William R. Watt wrote:
Melissa ) writes:

I think that paddling is one of those things that you know very
quickly, one way or the other, if you're going to really get into it
or not. I knew after my first one hour rental that it would be a
great passion of mine for the rest of my life. A feeling like that
doesn't lie! :-)

It sure helps a lot if you're not afraid of water.

That never stopped me (and I absolutely don't like water in quantities
that aren't drinkable), even though I swam more often than all of the
other newbies in my first year of paddling combined. :-)

There is so much to paddling that rewards overcoming fears and
hesitation, that I'm glad I continued to try to learn how to paddle.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Melissa wrote:
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:05:27 +0100, you wrote:

That never stopped me (and I absolutely don't like water in
quantities that aren't drinkable), even though I swam more often
than all of the other newbies in my first year of paddling
combined. :-)

There is so much to paddling that rewards overcoming fears and
hesitation, that I'm glad I continued to try to learn how to
paddle.

That's very interesting Wilko!

It does also inspire one to ponder one's own feelings about certain
types of fears; even for those of us who, for instance, claim to
"love water", and further claim to not be afraid of it.

Water seems an especially compelling subject for both our fears and
our undeniable attraction. Our physical bodies are mostly water, and
our planet's surface is, for the most part, covered with it. Water
enables our very lives, yet it can so easily play a part in ending
our lives as well. We are naturally drawn to it regardless of any
fears we may have concerning it.

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in reading more about your
"dislike" and/or "fear" of water in quantities larger than you can
drink, and how you reconcile that with your obvious love for seeking
out even some of the more "volatile" occurrences of it for your
paddling pleasure.

There are a couple of situations I can come up with off the top of my
mind that bring up some of the less defined fears in me.

One of those fears is of large columes of water moving around in a way
that feels like I can't control it, another is the fear of height.

I know, I've run some pretty big water, paddled a playboat in gale force
winds at sea and ran some waterfalls the height of my house... Sometimes
I found myself in a situation where it would be more fun to
concentrate on how to deal with my fears and go for it than stand around
on shore wondering what I'd miss. Other times there was a simple choice:
deal with it or be dealt with yourself. I've had some close calls.

I guess I've taught myself to try to deal with fear in a way that makes
me focus more on what can be done to prevent getting in trouble (or get
hurt) than on why or where I might get in trouble in the first place.

Having had some rather bad swims in big volume stuff (both in the surf
and on big volume rivers) hasn't helped my dislike of big volume stuff,
but that dislike isn't as strong as the satisfaction and fun I get from
paddling something like that with some friends and enjoying it.

It's not that I'm not aware of my fears, or that I try to shove them
under the carpet. I use fear to try to prevent myself from doing
something stupid, as one of the factors to weigh in whether or not I
want to run something. It is never allowed to dominate me, because i
know full well that to let go of reason is to give up and have panic
instead of technique or looking for options, but it's always there, in
more or less strength.

Not sure if this makes any sense, just finished building my new computer
and wanted to check if my internet connection worked again, my eyes are
falling shut and I can't for the life of me reread what I just wrote and
figure out if it makes any sense... We call that state "sleepdrunk". :-S

Good night!
--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/