Red Deer River running high (but not stupid high)...

No big deal until Big Rock. Still getting over the year before's ass-kicking on the Kicking Horse, I decided to walk, with a number
of our beginners. But sit back and watch the carnage! There was the pair in the ducky, travelling with a raft company (why the
raft co. let them go in a ducky is a question I don't have an answer to). Right over the pourover at the start of the rapid! Swim
the rest.

Then there was the group of three people in two canoes. The pair in one was completely clueless. They avoided the pourover (which
really isn't difficult), but were unable to avoid the big waves and swamped. Swim. The solo canoeist really looked like he knew
what he was doing, nonchalantly and skillfully paddling around the pourover. But then, all he needed to do was put in two or three
good strokes to miss the big waves, and he never did... Maybe he wanted to ride them, but in an open canoe without floatation, I
wouldn't think that was a good idea. Swamp. Swim.

So, get down to Gooseberry. The raft company is there, and all but one make it through safely--even the pair in the ducky got
ejected but they did make it through. One raft is off line and gets stuck. Now for those who haven't paddled the Red Deer,
Gooseberry is a river-wide ledge, and the river is probably over 200 feet wide. There is an angled tongue down the centre, which
can be ridden at any water level. Some people will boof the left edge of the ledge as well. At high water, like it was that day,
the line is razor thin, and the consequences of being off line would be rather unpleasant (though a swimmer would be most likely be
spit out after a spin cycle or two). Once again, I walked. As I said, one raft missed the line (just barely) and got stuck in the
hole. All the passengers were ejected (a couple had some unpleasant recirculations in the hole for a few seconds which probably
seemed like a lifetime to the hapless swimmers) but the guide stayed in. And he stayed in for the full fifteen minutes that his
raft was stuck!! Apparently he was a very experienced guide who had never once flipped a raft--and he still didn't flip it.
Anyway, a couple rafts unsuccessfully tried to knock him out of the hole. One of our kayakers ran the drop with a throwbag in his
teeth, throwing it at the right moment--he hit the guide in the face with the bag, but the guide was unable to grab it! Then there
was the guide on shore trying (two or three times!) to hit the raft, 80-90 feet away, with his 60 foot throwbag... And glaring at
me for not trying to throw my bag!

So we get down to the Nationals site, where the raft company takes their customers for a swim off a small cliff. One decides it
would fun to attack one of kayakers... At first, we thought he was panicking and was just trying to get out of the water, but it
was soon obvious that he was just an a$$hole.

Eventually, we get to the takeout, where we saw the remains of the canoe that the guy was paddling solo. We later found out that he
had tried to line his boat through Gooseberry, and it got away from him... He actually tried to accuse people of stealign the gear
he had had tied into the boat!

An amazing day of crazy bravado...

(I missed the really crazy day of bravado, when the river was stupid-high...)

-Paul

"Melissa" wrote in message
...

snip

Even though I feel quite confident with my current skills for the
types of water I paddle on, I know that I could still benefit greatly
from the types of advanced training offered by ACA and BCU, and
someday, I probably will take advantage of one or more of these
programs. The actual certification isn't really the point for me;
just the training...for both the survival skills and just for the fun
of learning these techniques that would be new to me.

- --
Melissa

Hi Melissa, that's cool. I've seen this subject covered on different forums
many times, and sometimes there is an attitude (or it is actually stated)
that it is dangerous and reckless for someone to take up paddling without
first going through formal instructional programs. There are different ways
of learning and obviously formal instruction is one of them that can be
enjoyable and useful for people, but it's not compulsory, in terms of
becoming skills or becoming safe.

Keenan
gokayaking.ca

"Tinkerntom" wrote in news:1105919192.042039.143900
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:


John Fereira wrote:


BTW, to Tinkertom...where is the triple black diamond run at Keystone?
When I skied there they only had one black diamond run and it was
pretty marginal for that classification.

There you go getting me confused with the facts. That was 15 years ago
or so, and I thought it was Keystone, but then it might have been a
green run as well. All I remember was this human snowball slowly
rolling down the slope.

It's certainly not uncommon. If I remember correctly the only black diamond
run at Keystone was also just under one of the main chairs that went up the
mountain from the parking lot.

It couldn't have been very steep if he was slowly rolling. I've seen quite
a few people fall on steep slopes, start sliding, and then begin to gain
speed. There are a couple of runs at Squaw Valley (where I learned to ski)
that are notorius for that (west face of KT-22 is one of them). The biggest
problem is that once you've fallen you really have no control whatsoever
once you start sliding. I know of a couple of instances where people have
fallen, started sliding, and eventually hit a tree and died.


I will tell you another OT story, which is my favorite, and has to do
with the worlds greatest athelete (well at least IMHO)


This has to do when I was learning to ski, and I was playing the part
of the human snowball. I had taken 3 or 4 days of lessons, and the
instructor told me I just needed to go out and get time on the slopes.

It's good advice for kayaking too.

BTW, have you read "Deep Trouble"? Considering your safety concerns you
probably should. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the book.

John Fereira wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in
news:1105919192.042039.143900
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:


John Fereira wrote:


BTW, to Tinkertom...where is the triple black diamond run at
Keystone?
When I skied there they only had one black diamond run and it was
pretty marginal for that classification.

There you go getting me confused with the facts. That was 15 years
ago
or so, and I thought it was Keystone, but then it might have been a
green run as well. All I remember was this human snowball slowly
rolling down the slope.

It's certainly not uncommon. If I remember correctly the only black
diamond
run at Keystone was also just under one of the main chairs that went
up the
mountain from the parking lot.

It couldn't have been very steep if he was slowly rolling. I've seen
quite
a few people fall on steep slopes, start sliding, and then begin to
gain
speed. There are a couple of runs at Squaw Valley (where I learned
to ski)
that are notorius for that (west face of KT-22 is one of them). The
biggest
problem is that once you've fallen you really have no control
whatsoever
once you start sliding. I know of a couple of instances where people
have
fallen, started sliding, and eventually hit a tree and died.


I will tell you another OT story, which is my favorite, and has to
do
with the worlds greatest athelete (well at least IMHO)


This has to do when I was learning to ski, and I was playing the
part
of the human snowball. I had taken 3 or 4 days of lessons, and the
instructor told me I just needed to go out and get time on the
slopes.

It's good advice for kayaking too.

BTW, have you read "Deep Trouble"? Considering your safety concerns
you
probably should. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the
book.

John, when your ski instructor tells you to get some longer skis, and
go out and get some time on the slope, that is pretty near the "Voice
of God" speaking. I know how old Noah felt when he was told to build a
boat, and I suspect that the same applies today when you are told to
get some time in the kayak. Question though, is it alright to wait for
the ice to thaw off of the lakes and streams. Most are pretty well
covered by hard water now.

Regarding wimpy Colorado ski runs, you may be right, and it seems that
I have heard this discussion before. I started skiing late, when 40,
and have skied about 100 days since then. My best ski buddy was Elmer
at Loveland who made the news every year since they reserved the number
one chair for him on opening day. At 70+ he was a great skier, and
skied most ever day. His attitude was that if he was having a good
time, what difference did it make what others thought of him, or how
tough Colorado runs were, though he did say it a little more
colorfully.

Having only skied here in Colorado, I can not compare the runs here to
anywhere else. Outhouse at Mary Jane is supposed to be pretty steep,
and a few others at MJ in the Railyard. Peak 10 at Brekenridge is
suppose to be pretty gnarly, and OutBack at Keystone. A-Basin is where
they hold the downhill speed trials, so if you want fast, that is the
place. Pavilcelli at A-Basin is nasty coming off the front side, often
times closed because not enough snow (too steep to hold it.) Crested
Butte holds some kind of extreme ski competition that has world class
skiers demonstrating ski carnage.

I can look forward to skiing some of the other areas such as Squaw Mtn,
Jackson Hole, or Utah, but for the time being, I definitly have a good
time in Colorado.

The back country skiing can be favorably compare to other areas. I saw
a guy jump off a cornice and land 150 ft down the mtn. and keep going.
So you may have to make your own Triple Diamond. One thing I learned
though is that snow conditions make a big difference. With the deep
powder we get here, the steepest slope could be easier than a nice
gentle green covered in ice. Back east where there is lots of ice,
skiing is a different experience altogether, and even the snow in
Sierras is different. I love the powder, the more the better!

As far as my story character rolling down the run, which was more of a
narrow gulch, with trees on each side. He had figured out that he did
not want to try going straight down. So he went side to side, and
occasionally took a header. His progress was slow, but his falls
dramatic. In the deep powder, he could not go fast, but he spent most
of his time digging skis out of the snow, after he had crawled back up
the hill to find them. Typical 2 steps forward, 1 or 1.5 back. Very
slow progress, and most of the time diving into the snow either as he
initially fell, or looking for his skis, and getting a thicker and
thicker coat of snow and ice as time went by.

I don't think that he had any food with him, and eventually he ran out
of energy and "hit the wall". That was when the hypothermia set in
because he could not generate enough heat to stay warm. He was pretty
incoherant the last time I saw him.

BTW, yes I have read Deep Trouble, and a lot of other books, and online
articles. A few years back when I started looking at kayaking as a way
to extend my fun, I was all excited about the prospects. That first
year, an aquaintance went WW kayaking, and caught a barbed wire fence
across his neck. Basically, took his head off, and sort of gave me a
wakeup call as to really think about what I was contemplating. Lots of
folks go kayaking, and have a good time, just don't lose your head over
it! TnT

I saw the Mtnwayfarer snow paddling up in Ft. Collins recently, and I
have to admit the paddling withdrawal shakes get pretty strong at
times. I tried to set up my Folbot in the living room, but SO would
have none of that. She said that it is different in the summer when she
can get out, but during the winter the space is just to small. Go
Figure! Its not like the living room changed size in the last 6 months,
and my boat didn't either! TnT

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
. ..

"Melissa" wrote in message
...

snip

Even though I feel quite confident with my current skills for the
types of water I paddle on, I know that I could still benefit greatly
from the types of advanced training offered by ACA and BCU, and
someday, I probably will take advantage of one or more of these
programs. The actual certification isn't really the point for me;
just the training...for both the survival skills and just for the fun
of learning these techniques that would be new to me.

- --
Melissa

Hi Melissa, that's cool. I've seen this subject covered on different
forums many times, and sometimes there is an attitude (or it is actually
stated) that it is dangerous and reckless for someone to take up paddling
without first going through formal instructional programs. There are
different ways of learning and obviously formal instruction is one of them
that can be enjoyable and useful for people, but it's not compulsory, in
terms of becoming skills or becoming safe.


I agree wholeheartedly. I would even guess that the majority of 'lifetime
boaters' are primarily self-taught. Maybe they used something formal to get
started, but probably not. I think the type of person who needs the external
structure of a formal training situation is not the type of person to have
the self-motivation to keep at it. (The river slang for those folks is 'Boy
Scout' g) OTOH, the type of person who is willing to get in a boat and
'figger it out' will be the type of person who continues getting into a
boat, imnsho.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
...

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
. ..

"Melissa" wrote in message
...

snip

Even though I feel quite confident with my current skills for the
types of water I paddle on, I know that I could still benefit greatly
from the types of advanced training offered by ACA and BCU, and
someday, I probably will take advantage of one or more of these
programs. The actual certification isn't really the point for me;
just the training...for both the survival skills and just for the fun
of learning these techniques that would be new to me.

- --
Melissa

Hi Melissa, that's cool. I've seen this subject covered on different
forums many times, and sometimes there is an attitude (or it is actually
stated) that it is dangerous and reckless for someone to take up paddling
without first going through formal instructional programs. There are
different ways of learning and obviously formal instruction is one of
them that can be enjoyable and useful for people, but it's not
compulsory, in terms of becoming skills or becoming safe.


I agree wholeheartedly. I would even guess that the majority of 'lifetime
boaters' are primarily self-taught. Maybe they used something formal to
get started, but probably not. I think the type of person who needs the
external structure of a formal training situation is not the type of
person to have the self-motivation to keep at it. (The river slang for
those folks is 'Boy Scout' g) OTOH, the type of person who is willing to
get in a boat and 'figger it out' will be the type of person who continues
getting into a boat, imnsho.

--riverman

Yes, there may be something to that...sort of along the lines of the type of
person that maintains their own snowblower. But I do no people who tend to
start things with formal lessons and they do stick with them...they just get
a boost of confidence from the lessons. Nothing wrong with that. It's just
not a necessity and it's not necessarily the best way to learn.

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I agree wholeheartedly. I would even guess that the majority of 'lifetime
boaters' are primarily self-taught. Maybe they used something formal to
get
started, but probably not. I think the type of person who needs the
external
structure of a formal training situation is not the type of person to have
the self-motivation to keep at it. (The river slang for those folks is
'Boy
Scout' g) OTOH, the type of person who is willing to get in a boat and
'figger it out' will be the type of person who continues getting into a
boat, imnsho.

Virtually all of the people I paddle with have gone through some kind of
class. I highly recommend classes, even though I didn't have one to start. I
learned very much when I started assisting classes that I should have
learned 10 years earlier. Students in our club classes learn all these
things in several weeks.

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class, they
tend to stick around.

Bob

Bob wrote:

Virtually all of the people I paddle with have gone through some kind of
class. I highly recommend classes, even though I didn't have one to start. I
learned very much when I started assisting classes that I should have
learned 10 years earlier. Students in our club classes learn all these
things in several weeks.

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class, they
tend to stick around.

I also started out trying to learn how to paddle with a student club
with mostly inexperienced instructors (who were little more than newbies
themselves in many respects). I learned a lot through getting in trouble
and swimming out of it. It wasn't untill my first kayaking holiday (nine
months after I started kayaking) that I learned some real skills by
experienced instructors. I learned more in that one week than in the
previous nine months. Having picked up some bad habits in the mean time,
I also had to unlearn some things. :-(

Still, I learned a lot (in the past decade or so) about paddling through
trial and error. I just get better at getting out of the errors
unscathed. ;-)

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"Bob" ) writes:

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class, they
tend to stick around.

"get through" as in "survive"? :)


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