Craziest Bravado story
 

Winter time being a great time for story telling, and having been
involved in some story telling on another thread, I thought I would try
moving in to its own topic. I know there are some good stories and
story tellers out there, and we're all ready for a good laugh or sigh.

The funniest situation I ever saw of bravado, and only funny because it
turned out ok was regarding a skier here in Colorado.

I was skiing at Keystone in the Out Back, when I came across a young
man maybe in his 20s, in T-shirt and jeans. He had no jacket, gloves or
hat. He had rented skis that day, and without lessons, set out on his
own to learn to ski. He figured that if he went to the highest lift,
and found the steepest run, that by the time he got to the bottom, he
would know how to ski.

I passed him probably 15 times on the Triple Black Diamond, and offered
help each time. I saw others also offer assistance, and with the same
result -refused, he was going to teach himself. Someone apparently
notified the SkiPatrol eventually, though they were not able to do
anything as long as he did not consent to their help.

At the end of the day they were sweeping the runs, and just in time,
because they found him hypothermic and disorientated. This time they
did not need his consent, as I saw them bundle him shaking onto the
sled. I heard later that he had survived.

The part that was funny, was I remember seeing him going down the mtn,
head over heels, skis going every which way. Like they say "Yardsale!"
Then he would have to scramble through the snow to get his gear
altogether, strapped back on, go five feet and start all over again. A
moving living Disastor zone.

Sorry about the OT story, but I have not been kayaking long enough to
have my own kayaking story, so I look forward to yours. TnT

On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Someone apparently
notified the SkiPatrol eventually, though they were not able to do
anything as long as he did not consent to their help.

Colorado's freedom to die. Around here, ski patrol can kick
you off the hills if they think you are not qualified for
the conditions or are at risk.

Mike

Melissa, the most common serious ski injury use to be broken legs with
the old binding system. So you don't feel so bad, the most common
injury now is broken thumbs. Which is due to skiers holding their poles
improperly. Seems sort of weird, but its true.

The above story occurred close to 15 years ago, and I suspect that the
Ski Patrol can take you off the mountain now for your protection. I
hope that there is never a time when kayaking gets so regulated. That
is why it is probably important for the community to check up on itself
to make sure we are advocating sound practices. TnT

Melissa wrote in news:75ko29r7x26b
:

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Hi Tinkerntom,

On 15 Jan 2005 18:58:56 -0800, you wrote:

He figured that if he went to the highest lift, and found the
steepest run, that by the time he got to the bottom, he would know how
to ski.

That reminds me a bit of my very first experience on skis, though I
did happily accept a bit of training help from a friend who was an
experienced skier.

I was 15, and a group of us went for a weekend at the local ski
resort where one of our friend's parents worked. Only two of our
group of five could already ski, so it was up to them to help the
rest of us get started.

We spent the first day on the rope tow (I think they called it the
"bunny slope" or something like that), and we practiced a few basics.
I felt pretty good after that first day, so the next day, I took the
chair up to the "intermediate" slope. It was great! I skied all day
and even into the night under the lights. Several nice runs, and I
never fell.

If you don't fall you're not trying hard enough.

Since Tinkertom specifically mentioned Keystone I can offer a similar
Keystone experience. In the mid 70's I was working for a band that was
playing at a hotel near Keystone. I had been skiing for five years or so
but no one else in the band had any experience. I gave them some pointers
on the bunny slope down near the parking lot and then went up the chair for
a couple of runs before coming back to check on their progress. One of them
(Bruce) seemed to be getting it so I suggested we take the chair up and take
the long meandering beginners run down. Once on the chair up into the trees
and away from the parking lot the beginner commented that "this is real
skiing...not that flat spot near the parking lot". We spent the rest of the
day up on the mountain skiing progressively more difficult slopes until he
was skiing intermediate runs with ease. Four weeks later we were skiing the
advanced upper bowls of A Basin along side a woman from the ski patrol. He
was ski patrolling himself a couple years after that, married the woman from
the ski patrol, who learned how to play the bass and played in Bruce's band.

BTW, to Tinkertom...where is the triple black diamond run at Keystone? When
I skied there they only had one black diamond run and it was pretty marginal
for that classification.

Tinkerntom wrote:

Winter time being a great time for story telling, and having been
involved in some story telling on another thread, I thought I would try
moving in to its own topic. I know there are some good stories and
story tellers out there, and we're all ready for a good laugh or sigh.


It's a story all right. As in "Tall Tale."

There is no such thing as a "Triple Black Diamond" at Keystone or
anywhere else in Colorado. It's sort of like telling a story about a
class nine rapid.

Anyway, I'll let you finish:


The funniest situation I ever saw of bravado, and only funny because it
turned out ok was regarding a skier here in Colorado.

I was skiing at Keystone in the Out Back, when I came across a young
man maybe in his 20s, in T-shirt and jeans. He had no jacket, gloves or
hat. He had rented skis that day, and without lessons, set out on his
own to learn to ski. He figured that if he went to the highest lift,
and found the steepest run, that by the time he got to the bottom, he
would know how to ski.

I passed him probably 15 times on the Triple Black Diamond, and offered
help each time. I saw others also offer assistance, and with the same
result -refused, he was going to teach himself. Someone apparently
notified the SkiPatrol eventually, though they were not able to do
anything as long as he did not consent to their help.

At the end of the day they were sweeping the runs, and just in time,
because they found him hypothermic and disorientated. This time they
did not need his consent, as I saw them bundle him shaking onto the
sled. I heard later that he had survived.

The part that was funny, was I remember seeing him going down the mtn,
head over heels, skis going every which way. Like they say "Yardsale!"
Then he would have to scramble through the snow to get his gear
altogether, strapped back on, go five feet and start all over again. A
moving living Disastor zone.

Sorry about the OT story, but I have not been kayaking long enough to
have my own kayaking story, so I look forward to yours. TnT



--
// Walt
//
// There is no Volkl Conspiracy

for flat water paddling it's a great way to learn

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John Fereira wrote:


BTW, to Tinkertom...where is the triple black diamond run at
Keystone? When
I skied there they only had one black diamond run and it was pretty
marginal
for that classification.

There you go getting me confused with the facts. That was 15 years ago
or so, and I thought it was Keystone, but then it might have been a
green run as well. All I remember was this human snowball slowly
rolling down the slope.

I will tell you another OT story, which is my favorite, and has to do
with the worlds greatest athelete (well at least IMHO)


This has to do when I was learning to ski, and I was playing the part
of the human snowball. I had taken 3 or 4 days of lessons, and the
instructor told me I just needed to go out and get time on the slopes.
This was great fun until I started pushing my limits on the blue/black
runs especially with moguls.

One day, while setting on Lower Columbine @ Mary Jane, amongst the
moguls probably having fallen for the hundredth time, and not totally
convinced that I was having fun, and generally feeling sorry for
myself. I all of a sudden heard a hoot behind me and figured I was
about to get run over. With a great deal of effort the two skiers
coming down together missed me, but piled up on the side of the run. I
expected them to be mad at me for setting in the center of a narrow
run, and for causing them to fall. Surprisingly, all I heard was
laughter as they untangled themselves and their skies and poles, and
with out missing a beat, they took off down the moguled slope. The ski
instructor holding the leash of the blind skier, and then I realized
that the blind skier had only one leg.

I realized then that I had nothing to complain about, and if he could
ski the moguls, then there was no reason stopping me except what was
between by ears. I can still remember them skiing away down that slope,
and the last thing I heard as they turned out of sight, was the worlds
greatest athelete, laughing. TnT

On 16-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Surprisingly, all I heard was
laughter as they untangled themselves and their skies and poles, and
with out missing a beat, they took off down the moguled slope. The ski
instructor holding the leash of the blind skier, and then I realized
that the blind skier had only one leg.

Some of the best cross-country skiing I've done was guiding a
blind skier. She was a paralympic competitor and really put me
thru the paces. She set the line downhill and I had to set my
line accordingly without falling. The most challenging skiing
I've done and the most rewarding. It makes it hard to listen
to whiners telling me how tough their skiing is, though.

Mike

in article , Walt at
wrote on 1/16/05 6:10 PM:

I was skiing at Keystone in the Out Back, when I came across a young
man maybe in his 20s, in T-shirt and jeans. He had no jacket, gloves or
hat. He had rented skis that day, and without lessons, set out on his
own to learn to ski. He figured that if he went to the highest lift,
and found the steepest run, that by the time he got to the bottom, he
would know how to ski.

I had a jacket and gloves, and the skiing here probably doesn't offer hills
of equal challenge, but that is exactly how I learned to ski. I'd never been
on downhill skis in my life, my buddies took me up to camp fortune, pointed
me towards the side with the more difficult hills, and off I went. A great
many people learn things simply by doing them.

Melissa ) writes:
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Hi William,

On 16 Jan 2005 23:17:53 GMT, you wrote:

for flat water paddling it's a great way to learn

Care to define "flat water" for us? :-)

flat: no surf

eg: Rideau River, Meach Lake (both popular flat water paddling venues)

it's also the perfect way to learn to run rapids, starting small and
working up. it's the way it's been done for thousands of years before the
invention of "certified padding instructors", and before the invention of
railroads and automobiles when canoes and kayaks were used for every day
transportation by all the residents of Canada. instead of a car parked in
your driveway you had a canoe or a kayak. even as late as the 1960's
prospectors and trappers still used canoes every day in season to earn their
living without the advantage of a "certified paddling instructor". most of
North amercia was explored, mapped, and surveyed (eg Geological Survey of
Canada) from canoes before the invention of "certified paddling
instructors", often by wilderness novices right of the boat from the old
country looking for any kind of work or serving in Her Majesty's forces.


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Red Deer River running high (but not stupid high)...

No big deal until Big Rock. Still getting over the year before's ass-kicking on the Kicking Horse, I decided to walk, with a number
of our beginners. But sit back and watch the carnage! There was the pair in the ducky, travelling with a raft company (why the
raft co. let them go in a ducky is a question I don't have an answer to). Right over the pourover at the start of the rapid! Swim
the rest.

Then there was the group of three people in two canoes. The pair in one was completely clueless. They avoided the pourover (which
really isn't difficult), but were unable to avoid the big waves and swamped. Swim. The solo canoeist really looked like he knew
what he was doing, nonchalantly and skillfully paddling around the pourover. But then, all he needed to do was put in two or three
good strokes to miss the big waves, and he never did... Maybe he wanted to ride them, but in an open canoe without floatation, I
wouldn't think that was a good idea. Swamp. Swim.

So, get down to Gooseberry. The raft company is there, and all but one make it through safely--even the pair in the ducky got
ejected but they did make it through. One raft is off line and gets stuck. Now for those who haven't paddled the Red Deer,
Gooseberry is a river-wide ledge, and the river is probably over 200 feet wide. There is an angled tongue down the centre, which
can be ridden at any water level. Some people will boof the left edge of the ledge as well. At high water, like it was that day,
the line is razor thin, and the consequences of being off line would be rather unpleasant (though a swimmer would be most likely be
spit out after a spin cycle or two). Once again, I walked. As I said, one raft missed the line (just barely) and got stuck in the
hole. All the passengers were ejected (a couple had some unpleasant recirculations in the hole for a few seconds which probably
seemed like a lifetime to the hapless swimmers) but the guide stayed in. And he stayed in for the full fifteen minutes that his
raft was stuck!! Apparently he was a very experienced guide who had never once flipped a raft--and he still didn't flip it.
Anyway, a couple rafts unsuccessfully tried to knock him out of the hole. One of our kayakers ran the drop with a throwbag in his
teeth, throwing it at the right moment--he hit the guide in the face with the bag, but the guide was unable to grab it! Then there
was the guide on shore trying (two or three times!) to hit the raft, 80-90 feet away, with his 60 foot throwbag... And glaring at
me for not trying to throw my bag!

So we get down to the Nationals site, where the raft company takes their customers for a swim off a small cliff. One decides it
would fun to attack one of kayakers... At first, we thought he was panicking and was just trying to get out of the water, but it
was soon obvious that he was just an a$$hole.

Eventually, we get to the takeout, where we saw the remains of the canoe that the guy was paddling solo. We later found out that he
had tried to line his boat through Gooseberry, and it got away from him... He actually tried to accuse people of stealign the gear
he had had tied into the boat!

An amazing day of crazy bravado...

(I missed the really crazy day of bravado, when the river was stupid-high...)

-Paul

"Melissa" wrote in message
...

snip

Even though I feel quite confident with my current skills for the
types of water I paddle on, I know that I could still benefit greatly
from the types of advanced training offered by ACA and BCU, and
someday, I probably will take advantage of one or more of these
programs. The actual certification isn't really the point for me;
just the training...for both the survival skills and just for the fun
of learning these techniques that would be new to me.

- --
Melissa

Hi Melissa, that's cool. I've seen this subject covered on different forums
many times, and sometimes there is an attitude (or it is actually stated)
that it is dangerous and reckless for someone to take up paddling without
first going through formal instructional programs. There are different ways
of learning and obviously formal instruction is one of them that can be
enjoyable and useful for people, but it's not compulsory, in terms of
becoming skills or becoming safe.

Keenan
gokayaking.ca

"Tinkerntom" wrote in news:1105919192.042039.143900
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:


John Fereira wrote:


BTW, to Tinkertom...where is the triple black diamond run at Keystone?
When I skied there they only had one black diamond run and it was
pretty marginal for that classification.

There you go getting me confused with the facts. That was 15 years ago
or so, and I thought it was Keystone, but then it might have been a
green run as well. All I remember was this human snowball slowly
rolling down the slope.

It's certainly not uncommon. If I remember correctly the only black diamond
run at Keystone was also just under one of the main chairs that went up the
mountain from the parking lot.

It couldn't have been very steep if he was slowly rolling. I've seen quite
a few people fall on steep slopes, start sliding, and then begin to gain
speed. There are a couple of runs at Squaw Valley (where I learned to ski)
that are notorius for that (west face of KT-22 is one of them). The biggest
problem is that once you've fallen you really have no control whatsoever
once you start sliding. I know of a couple of instances where people have
fallen, started sliding, and eventually hit a tree and died.


I will tell you another OT story, which is my favorite, and has to do
with the worlds greatest athelete (well at least IMHO)


This has to do when I was learning to ski, and I was playing the part
of the human snowball. I had taken 3 or 4 days of lessons, and the
instructor told me I just needed to go out and get time on the slopes.

It's good advice for kayaking too.

BTW, have you read "Deep Trouble"? Considering your safety concerns you
probably should. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the book.

John Fereira wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in
news:1105919192.042039.143900
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:


John Fereira wrote:


BTW, to Tinkertom...where is the triple black diamond run at
Keystone?
When I skied there they only had one black diamond run and it was
pretty marginal for that classification.

There you go getting me confused with the facts. That was 15 years
ago
or so, and I thought it was Keystone, but then it might have been a
green run as well. All I remember was this human snowball slowly
rolling down the slope.

It's certainly not uncommon. If I remember correctly the only black
diamond
run at Keystone was also just under one of the main chairs that went
up the
mountain from the parking lot.

It couldn't have been very steep if he was slowly rolling. I've seen
quite
a few people fall on steep slopes, start sliding, and then begin to
gain
speed. There are a couple of runs at Squaw Valley (where I learned
to ski)
that are notorius for that (west face of KT-22 is one of them). The
biggest
problem is that once you've fallen you really have no control
whatsoever
once you start sliding. I know of a couple of instances where people
have
fallen, started sliding, and eventually hit a tree and died.


I will tell you another OT story, which is my favorite, and has to
do
with the worlds greatest athelete (well at least IMHO)


This has to do when I was learning to ski, and I was playing the
part
of the human snowball. I had taken 3 or 4 days of lessons, and the
instructor told me I just needed to go out and get time on the
slopes.

It's good advice for kayaking too.

BTW, have you read "Deep Trouble"? Considering your safety concerns
you
probably should. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the
book.

John, when your ski instructor tells you to get some longer skis, and
go out and get some time on the slope, that is pretty near the "Voice
of God" speaking. I know how old Noah felt when he was told to build a
boat, and I suspect that the same applies today when you are told to
get some time in the kayak. Question though, is it alright to wait for
the ice to thaw off of the lakes and streams. Most are pretty well
covered by hard water now.

Regarding wimpy Colorado ski runs, you may be right, and it seems that
I have heard this discussion before. I started skiing late, when 40,
and have skied about 100 days since then. My best ski buddy was Elmer
at Loveland who made the news every year since they reserved the number
one chair for him on opening day. At 70+ he was a great skier, and
skied most ever day. His attitude was that if he was having a good
time, what difference did it make what others thought of him, or how
tough Colorado runs were, though he did say it a little more
colorfully.

Having only skied here in Colorado, I can not compare the runs here to
anywhere else. Outhouse at Mary Jane is supposed to be pretty steep,
and a few others at MJ in the Railyard. Peak 10 at Brekenridge is
suppose to be pretty gnarly, and OutBack at Keystone. A-Basin is where
they hold the downhill speed trials, so if you want fast, that is the
place. Pavilcelli at A-Basin is nasty coming off the front side, often
times closed because not enough snow (too steep to hold it.) Crested
Butte holds some kind of extreme ski competition that has world class
skiers demonstrating ski carnage.

I can look forward to skiing some of the other areas such as Squaw Mtn,
Jackson Hole, or Utah, but for the time being, I definitly have a good
time in Colorado.

The back country skiing can be favorably compare to other areas. I saw
a guy jump off a cornice and land 150 ft down the mtn. and keep going.
So you may have to make your own Triple Diamond. One thing I learned
though is that snow conditions make a big difference. With the deep
powder we get here, the steepest slope could be easier than a nice
gentle green covered in ice. Back east where there is lots of ice,
skiing is a different experience altogether, and even the snow in
Sierras is different. I love the powder, the more the better!

As far as my story character rolling down the run, which was more of a
narrow gulch, with trees on each side. He had figured out that he did
not want to try going straight down. So he went side to side, and
occasionally took a header. His progress was slow, but his falls
dramatic. In the deep powder, he could not go fast, but he spent most
of his time digging skis out of the snow, after he had crawled back up
the hill to find them. Typical 2 steps forward, 1 or 1.5 back. Very
slow progress, and most of the time diving into the snow either as he
initially fell, or looking for his skis, and getting a thicker and
thicker coat of snow and ice as time went by.

I don't think that he had any food with him, and eventually he ran out
of energy and "hit the wall". That was when the hypothermia set in
because he could not generate enough heat to stay warm. He was pretty
incoherant the last time I saw him.

BTW, yes I have read Deep Trouble, and a lot of other books, and online
articles. A few years back when I started looking at kayaking as a way
to extend my fun, I was all excited about the prospects. That first
year, an aquaintance went WW kayaking, and caught a barbed wire fence
across his neck. Basically, took his head off, and sort of gave me a
wakeup call as to really think about what I was contemplating. Lots of
folks go kayaking, and have a good time, just don't lose your head over
it! TnT

I saw the Mtnwayfarer snow paddling up in Ft. Collins recently, and I
have to admit the paddling withdrawal shakes get pretty strong at
times. I tried to set up my Folbot in the living room, but SO would
have none of that. She said that it is different in the summer when she
can get out, but during the winter the space is just to small. Go
Figure! Its not like the living room changed size in the last 6 months,
and my boat didn't either! TnT

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
. ..

"Melissa" wrote in message
...

snip

Even though I feel quite confident with my current skills for the
types of water I paddle on, I know that I could still benefit greatly
from the types of advanced training offered by ACA and BCU, and
someday, I probably will take advantage of one or more of these
programs. The actual certification isn't really the point for me;
just the training...for both the survival skills and just for the fun
of learning these techniques that would be new to me.

- --
Melissa

Hi Melissa, that's cool. I've seen this subject covered on different
forums many times, and sometimes there is an attitude (or it is actually
stated) that it is dangerous and reckless for someone to take up paddling
without first going through formal instructional programs. There are
different ways of learning and obviously formal instruction is one of them
that can be enjoyable and useful for people, but it's not compulsory, in
terms of becoming skills or becoming safe.


I agree wholeheartedly. I would even guess that the majority of 'lifetime
boaters' are primarily self-taught. Maybe they used something formal to get
started, but probably not. I think the type of person who needs the external
structure of a formal training situation is not the type of person to have
the self-motivation to keep at it. (The river slang for those folks is 'Boy
Scout' g) OTOH, the type of person who is willing to get in a boat and
'figger it out' will be the type of person who continues getting into a
boat, imnsho.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
...

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
. ..

"Melissa" wrote in message
...

snip

Even though I feel quite confident with my current skills for the
types of water I paddle on, I know that I could still benefit greatly
from the types of advanced training offered by ACA and BCU, and
someday, I probably will take advantage of one or more of these
programs. The actual certification isn't really the point for me;
just the training...for both the survival skills and just for the fun
of learning these techniques that would be new to me.

- --
Melissa

Hi Melissa, that's cool. I've seen this subject covered on different
forums many times, and sometimes there is an attitude (or it is actually
stated) that it is dangerous and reckless for someone to take up paddling
without first going through formal instructional programs. There are
different ways of learning and obviously formal instruction is one of
them that can be enjoyable and useful for people, but it's not
compulsory, in terms of becoming skills or becoming safe.


I agree wholeheartedly. I would even guess that the majority of 'lifetime
boaters' are primarily self-taught. Maybe they used something formal to
get started, but probably not. I think the type of person who needs the
external structure of a formal training situation is not the type of
person to have the self-motivation to keep at it. (The river slang for
those folks is 'Boy Scout' g) OTOH, the type of person who is willing to
get in a boat and 'figger it out' will be the type of person who continues
getting into a boat, imnsho.

--riverman

Yes, there may be something to that...sort of along the lines of the type of
person that maintains their own snowblower. But I do no people who tend to
start things with formal lessons and they do stick with them...they just get
a boost of confidence from the lessons. Nothing wrong with that. It's just
not a necessity and it's not necessarily the best way to learn.

"riverman" wrote in message
...

I agree wholeheartedly. I would even guess that the majority of 'lifetime
boaters' are primarily self-taught. Maybe they used something formal to
get
started, but probably not. I think the type of person who needs the
external
structure of a formal training situation is not the type of person to have
the self-motivation to keep at it. (The river slang for those folks is
'Boy
Scout' g) OTOH, the type of person who is willing to get in a boat and
'figger it out' will be the type of person who continues getting into a
boat, imnsho.

Virtually all of the people I paddle with have gone through some kind of
class. I highly recommend classes, even though I didn't have one to start. I
learned very much when I started assisting classes that I should have
learned 10 years earlier. Students in our club classes learn all these
things in several weeks.

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class, they
tend to stick around.

Bob

Bob wrote:

Virtually all of the people I paddle with have gone through some kind of
class. I highly recommend classes, even though I didn't have one to start. I
learned very much when I started assisting classes that I should have
learned 10 years earlier. Students in our club classes learn all these
things in several weeks.

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class, they
tend to stick around.

I also started out trying to learn how to paddle with a student club
with mostly inexperienced instructors (who were little more than newbies
themselves in many respects). I learned a lot through getting in trouble
and swimming out of it. It wasn't untill my first kayaking holiday (nine
months after I started kayaking) that I learned some real skills by
experienced instructors. I learned more in that one week than in the
previous nine months. Having picked up some bad habits in the mean time,
I also had to unlearn some things. :-(

Still, I learned a lot (in the past decade or so) about paddling through
trial and error. I just get better at getting out of the errors
unscathed. ;-)

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"Bob" ) writes:

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class, they
tend to stick around.

"get through" as in "survive"? :)


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Paul, I did a section of the Red Deer, at lower water, but do
not know the names of any of the rapids. Can you post enough detail
so I know what section this story is about, and whether I've seen some
of the same section or river? I remember a riverwide ledge, which is
the only one we bank-scouted prior to running. Possibly the one you
call Gooseberry? A smallish river, clear water, very pretty in
places. Saw lots of wildlife, elk, wolf. Tom McCloud


On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:05:24 GMT, "Paul Skoczylas"
wrote:

Red Deer River running high (but not stupid high)...

No big deal until Big Rock. Still getting over the year before's ass-kicking on the Kicking Horse, I decided to walk, with a number
of our beginners. But sit back and watch the carnage! There was the pair in the ducky, travelling with a raft company (why the
raft co. let them go in a ducky is a question I don't have an answer to). Right over the pourover at the start of the rapid! Swim
the rest.

Then there was the group of three people in two canoes. The pair in one was completely clueless. They avoided the pourover (which
really isn't difficult), but were unable to avoid the big waves and swamped. Swim. The solo canoeist really looked like he knew
what he was doing, nonchalantly and skillfully paddling around the pourover. But then, all he needed to do was put in two or three
good strokes to miss the big waves, and he never did... Maybe he wanted to ride them, but in an open canoe without floatation, I
wouldn't think that was a good idea. Swamp. Swim.

So, get down to Gooseberry. The raft company is there, and all but one make it through safely--even the pair in the ducky got
ejected but they did make it through. One raft is off line and gets stuck. Now for those who haven't paddled the Red Deer,
Gooseberry is a river-wide ledge, and the river is probably over 200 feet wide. There is an angled tongue down the centre, which
can be ridden at any water level. Some people will boof the left edge of the ledge as well. At high water, like it was that day,
the line is razor thin, and the consequences of being off line would be rather unpleasant (though a swimmer would be most likely be
spit out after a spin cycle or two). Once again, I walked. As I said, one raft missed the line (just barely) and got stuck in the
hole. All the passengers were ejected (a couple had some unpleasant recirculations in the hole for a few seconds which probably
seemed like a lifetime to the hapless swimmers) but the guide stayed in. And he stayed in for the full fifteen minutes that his
raft was stuck!! Apparently he was a very experienced guide who had never once flipped a raft--and he still didn't flip it.
Anyway, a couple rafts unsuccessfully tried to knock him out of the hole. One of our kayakers ran the drop with a throwbag in his
teeth, throwing it at the right moment--he hit the guide in the face with the bag, but the guide was unable to grab it! Then there
was the guide on shore trying (two or three times!) to hit the raft, 80-90 feet away, with his 60 foot throwbag... And glaring at
me for not trying to throw my bag!

So we get down to the Nationals site, where the raft company takes their customers for a swim off a small cliff. One decides it
would fun to attack one of kayakers... At first, we thought he was panicking and was just trying to get out of the water, but it
was soon obvious that he was just an a$$hole.

Eventually, we get to the takeout, where we saw the remains of the canoe that the guy was paddling solo. We later found out that he
had tried to line his boat through Gooseberry, and it got away from him... He actually tried to accuse people of stealign the gear
he had had tied into the boat!

An amazing day of crazy bravado...

(I missed the really crazy day of bravado, when the river was stupid-high...)

-Paul

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"Bob" ) writes:

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class,
they
tend to stick around.

"get through" as in "survive"? :)

More a matter of sticking to it. A lot of people discover they just don't
have the mental attitude necessary for the sport. It really is a sport that
is not for everyone.

Bob

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:

Virtually all of the people I paddle with have gone through some kind of
class. I highly recommend classes, even though I didn't have one to
start. I
learned very much when I started assisting classes that I should have
learned 10 years earlier. Students in our club classes learn all these
things in several weeks.

These people learn how to be safe, and if they get through the class,
they
tend to stick around.

I also started out trying to learn how to paddle with a student club
with mostly inexperienced instructors (who were little more than newbies
themselves in many respects). I learned a lot through getting in trouble
and swimming out of it. It wasn't untill my first kayaking holiday (nine
months after I started kayaking) that I learned some real skills by
experienced instructors. I learned more in that one week than in the
previous nine months. Having picked up some bad habits in the mean time,
I also had to unlearn some things. :-(

Still, I learned a lot (in the past decade or so) about paddling through
trial and error. I just get better at getting out of the errors
unscathed. ;-)

I too learned a lot through trial and error. I learned to roll quickly.
Which was lucky, since I didn't have a solid left side brace until I got rid
of the feathered paddle more than a year later. Which ensured that I
practiced my roll a lot. Which resulted in it being pretty bombproof.

Our area club has had ACA certified instructors for quite a few years now.
They really do give excellent instruction, and on river trips they are often
close to 1/1 student/assistant ratio. It's a good way to learn, as I'm sure
any of the students would agree.

It does pay to make sure that the more experienced paddlers on trips you go
on know that you want suggestions. That's the continuing education that's
done the most for me.

Bob

"Bob" ) writes:

"get through" as in "survive"? :)

More a matter of sticking to it. A lot of people discover they just don't
have the mental attitude necessary for the sport. It really is a sport that
is not for everyone.

Just curious but how do you tell if they don't like the sport or just
don't like the lessons? (I know which it is I like.) And how do you
know they don't keep paddling on their own after dropping out of lessons?
Does some global paddling control organization follow up them through the
rest of their lives? Big brother, stationary orbital tracking, .... ?



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Melissa ) writes:

I think that paddling is one of those things that you know very
quickly, one way or the other, if you're going to really get into it
or not. I knew after my first one hour rental that it would be a
great passion of mine for the rest of my life. A feeling like that
doesn't lie! :-)

It sure helps a lot if you're not afraid of water.

--
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"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"Bob" ) writes:

"get through" as in "survive"? :)

More a matter of sticking to it. A lot of people discover they just don't
have the mental attitude necessary for the sport. It really is a sport
that
is not for everyone.

Just curious but how do you tell if they don't like the sport or just
don't like the lessons?

An excellent thought William (speaking as an educator who has from time to
time made the same mistake of blaming the subject instead of the lesson).

"Tom McCloud" wrote in message ...
Paul, I did a section of the Red Deer, at lower water, but do
not know the names of any of the rapids. Can you post enough detail
so I know what section this story is about, and whether I've seen some
of the same section or river? I remember a riverwide ledge, which is
the only one we bank-scouted prior to running. Possibly the one you
call Gooseberry? A smallish river, clear water, very pretty in
places. Saw lots of wildlife, elk, wolf. Tom McCloud

The Red Deer has many sections. The parts of interest to whitewater paddlers are all upstream of Sundre. The main section starts
where the Forestry Trunk Road crosses the river, at Mountain Aire Lodge. (AFAIK, that's the only currently existing bridge upstream
of Sundre.) Various take-outs are used. Gooseberry is the only significant river wide ledge on the main run. If you did the lower
section, near Coal Camp, there's a rapid called double ledge which is also significant--the river is much narrower and constricted.
I doubt anyone would see that section on the same run as Gooseberry--or it would be a very long day! At lower water, none of the
other rapids really have any significance. There might be a hole at the bottom of Big Rock (which is the first "real" rapid), but
it's probably playable.

Low water (depending on who you talk to) is anything below about 50 cms--I know people who are happy to run it at 30, but that seems
a waste of time to me. High water is anything over 80 or so cms. That day it was over 100 cms. (The year before, a group paddled
it over 200 cms, experiencing severe carnage...)

-Paul

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"Bob" ) writes:

"get through" as in "survive"? :)

More a matter of sticking to it. A lot of people discover they just
don't
have the mental attitude necessary for the sport. It really is a sport
that
is not for everyone.

Just curious but how do you tell if they don't like the sport or just
don't like the lessons? (I know which it is I like.) And how do you
know they don't keep paddling on their own after dropping out of lessons?
Does some global paddling control organization follow up them through the
rest of their lives? Big brother, stationary orbital tracking, .... ?

You can tell a lot by their response to the class river trips. Some people
are having a lot of fun. Others are petrified of everything. The second
group you tend to never run into on the river.

I guess I make assumptions based upon whether I see them again on the
rivers. Our club has a lot of trips on the schedule. Enthusiastic paddlers
usually use those trips to get out, to meet new paddling friends, and to
discover new rivers. Then, you also just run into them on the river. It's
not that big of a community, and certain rivers tend to draw crowds at
certain times. I am obviously operating on a subset of local paddlers. Those
that take lessons through the commercial operations may respond differently.
I do know that the club class I've helped with is an exceptionally
supportive environment to learn in.

Personally, I can't imagine not liking the lessons. They speed up the
learning process significantly, allowing people to paddle, brace, and roll
quickly and safely. This allow people to relax on the river, because they
know they can handle most problems early in their paddling career. They are
an excellent place to find paddlers with your same interests/inclinations. I
even know several couples who married after meeting in the classes.

Bob

William R. Watt wrote:
Melissa ) writes:


I think that paddling is one of those things that you know very
quickly, one way or the other, if you're going to really get into it
or not. I knew after my first one hour rental that it would be a
great passion of mine for the rest of my life. A feeling like that
doesn't lie! :-)


It sure helps a lot if you're not afraid of water.

That never stopped me (and I absolutely don't like water in quantities
that aren't drinkable), even though I swam more often than all of the
other newbies in my first year of paddling combined. :-)

There is so much to paddling that rewards overcoming fears and
hesitation, that I'm glad I continued to try to learn how to paddle.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Melissa wrote:
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:05:27 +0100, you wrote:


That never stopped me (and I absolutely don't like water in
quantities that aren't drinkable), even though I swam more often
than all of the other newbies in my first year of paddling
combined. :-)


There is so much to paddling that rewards overcoming fears and
hesitation, that I'm glad I continued to try to learn how to
paddle.


That's very interesting Wilko!

It does also inspire one to ponder one's own feelings about certain
types of fears; even for those of us who, for instance, claim to
"love water", and further claim to not be afraid of it.

Water seems an especially compelling subject for both our fears and
our undeniable attraction. Our physical bodies are mostly water, and
our planet's surface is, for the most part, covered with it. Water
enables our very lives, yet it can so easily play a part in ending
our lives as well. We are naturally drawn to it regardless of any
fears we may have concerning it.

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in reading more about your
"dislike" and/or "fear" of water in quantities larger than you can
drink, and how you reconcile that with your obvious love for seeking
out even some of the more "volatile" occurrences of it for your
paddling pleasure.

There are a couple of situations I can come up with off the top of my
mind that bring up some of the less defined fears in me.

One of those fears is of large columes of water moving around in a way
that feels like I can't control it, another is the fear of height.

I know, I've run some pretty big water, paddled a playboat in gale force
winds at sea and ran some waterfalls the height of my house... Sometimes
I found myself in a situation where it would be more fun to
concentrate on how to deal with my fears and go for it than stand around
on shore wondering what I'd miss. Other times there was a simple choice:
deal with it or be dealt with yourself. I've had some close calls.

I guess I've taught myself to try to deal with fear in a way that makes
me focus more on what can be done to prevent getting in trouble (or get
hurt) than on why or where I might get in trouble in the first place.

Having had some rather bad swims in big volume stuff (both in the surf
and on big volume rivers) hasn't helped my dislike of big volume stuff,
but that dislike isn't as strong as the satisfaction and fun I get from
paddling something like that with some friends and enjoying it.

It's not that I'm not aware of my fears, or that I try to shove them
under the carpet. I use fear to try to prevent myself from doing
something stupid, as one of the factors to weigh in whether or not I
want to run something. It is never allowed to dominate me, because i
know full well that to let go of reason is to give up and have panic
instead of technique or looking for options, but it's always there, in
more or less strength.

Not sure if this makes any sense, just finished building my new computer
and wanted to check if my internet connection worked again, my eyes are
falling shut and I can't for the life of me reread what I just wrote and
figure out if it makes any sense... We call that state "sleepdrunk". :-S

Good night!
--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"Tinkerntom" wrote in news:1106014598.260382.303640
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

John Fereira wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in news:1105919192.042039.143900
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:


John Fereira wrote:


BTW, to Tinkertom...where is the triple black diamond run at
Keystone?
When I skied there they only had one black diamond run and it was
pretty marginal for that classification.

There you go getting me confused with the facts. That was 15 years
ago or so, and I thought it was Keystone, but then it might have
been a green run as well. All I remember was this human snowball
slowly rolling down the slope.

It's certainly not uncommon. If I remember correctly the only black
diamond run at Keystone was also just under one of the main chairs
that went up the mountain from the parking lot.

It couldn't have been very steep if he was slowly rolling. I've seen
quite a few people fall on steep slopes, start sliding, and then begin
to gain speed. There are a couple of runs at Squaw Valley (where I
learned to ski) that are notorius for that (west face of KT-22 is one
of them). The biggest problem is that once you've fallen you really
have no control whatsoever once you start sliding. I know of a couple
of instances where people have fallen, started sliding, and eventually
hit a tree and died.


I will tell you another OT story, which is my favorite, and has to
do with the worlds greatest athelete (well at least IMHO)


This has to do when I was learning to ski, and I was playing the
part of the human snowball. I had taken 3 or 4 days of lessons, and
the instructor told me I just needed to go out and get time on the
slopes.

It's good advice for kayaking too.

BTW, have you read "Deep Trouble"? Considering your safety concerns
you probably should. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from
the book.

John, when your ski instructor tells you to get some longer skis, and
go out and get some time on the slope, that is pretty near the "Voice
of God" speaking.

Although I've taken quite a few kayaking lessons I never did take many
skiing lessons. I took one the first season and then about 8 years later
look some racing clinic classes. I haven't done much skiing in the last 10
years or so and still haven't bought a pair of the shorter shaped skis. I
still have a pair of Rossignol 3G kevlar giant slalom cut skis that are
203cm (which is pretty long for someone my size).

I know how old Noah felt when he was told to build a
boat, and I suspect that the same applies today when you are told to
get some time in the kayak. Question though, is it alright to wait for
the ice to thaw off of the lakes and streams. Most are pretty well
covered by hard water now.

Of course it's alright to wait. Have you looked into any local clubs that
might do winter pool sessions? The spot where I normally launch my boat
probably has a foot of ice on it now but a local group does pool sessions
once a month so I at least get to practice some rolls and help others learn
new skills.


Regarding wimpy Colorado ski runs, you may be right, and it seems that
I have heard this discussion before.

I really wasn't denigrating Colorado ski run ratings in general but I have
never seen a 3 diamond rating anywhere. I've seen a couple of places that
rated some very difficult runs as 2 diamond though.

I started skiing late, when 40,
and have skied about 100 days since then. My best ski buddy was Elmer
at Loveland who made the news every year since they reserved the number
one chair for him on opening day. At 70+ he was a great skier, and
skied most ever day. His attitude was that if he was having a good
time, what difference did it make what others thought of him, or how
tough Colorado runs were, though he did say it a little more
colorfully.

I ran into a guy in the lodge at Squaw Valley one time that asked to sit in
a chair at the table where I was seated. We got to talking and he gleefully
said that it was great weather for his first time this season. Actually,
what he meant was that it was the first time he had ever skied. He said he
was 65.


Having only skied here in Colorado, I can not compare the runs here to
anywhere else. Outhouse at Mary Jane is supposed to be pretty steep,
and a few others at MJ in the Railyard. Peak 10 at Brekenridge is
suppose to be pretty gnarly, and OutBack at Keystone. A-Basin is where
they hold the downhill speed trials, so if you want fast, that is the
place. Pavilcelli at A-Basin is nasty coming off the front side, often
times closed because not enough snow (too steep to hold it.) Crested
Butte holds some kind of extreme ski competition that has world class
skiers demonstrating ski carnage.

Colorado certainly compares favorably in terms of difficult runs to anywhere
I have skied. Breckenridge does indeed have some steep stuff and I spent
every day for four weeks skiing A-Basin, althought I thought there were a
couple of runs more difficult than Pavicelli (if you don't drop in off the
cornice).

I've skied several resorts in Colorado but still jones to ski "the plunge"
at Telluride.



I can look forward to skiing some of the other areas such as Squaw Mtn,
Jackson Hole, or Utah, but for the time being, I definitly have a good
time in Colorado.

If you get out west Squaw Valley is hard to beat but Alpine Meadows and
Kirkwood also have some really good challenging runs. I dislocated a thumb
on Olympic at Kirkwood (at the time rated the 4th longest/steepest run in
North America). I never have skied Utah but I've been to Jackson Hole and
was fortunate to get to ski Chamonix in the French Alps a couple of years
ago. I spent most of my early days skiing around Lake Tahoe, primarily at
Squaw Valley.


The back country skiing can be favorably compare to other areas. I saw
a guy jump off a cornice and land 150 ft down the mtn. and keep going.

I saw Steve McKinney (who held the fastest person on skis record a couple of
times) jump off a cornice at Squaw Valley. I expected him to turn after
landing but he just kept his skies pointing down the fall line. He was
really flying when he went by me.



BTW, yes I have read Deep Trouble, and a lot of other books, and online
articles. A few years back when I started looking at kayaking as a way
to extend my fun, I was all excited about the prospects. That first
year, an aquaintance went WW kayaking, and caught a barbed wire fence
across his neck. Basically, took his head off, and sort of gave me a
wakeup call as to really think about what I was contemplating. Lots of
folks go kayaking, and have a good time, just don't lose your head over
it! TnT

I hate it when that happens.

"Melissa" wrote in message
...
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Hi Bob,

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:41:11 -0800, you wrote:

It really is a sport that is not for everyone.

I think that paddling is one of those things that you know very
quickly, one way or the other, if you're going to really get into it
or not. I knew after my first one hour rental that it would be a
great passion of mine for the rest of my life. A feeling like that
doesn't lie! :-)

- --
Melissa

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It worked that way for me also. I grew up with many small fishing boats in
the family and I loved them all. I even own one right now. But it has not
been in the water more than once in the last 2 years because I went kayaking
once 3 years ago and now my boating is done in a sea kayak or a rec kayak. I
don't have enough time on the water to let the fishing boat get in the way
of kayaking.

Ken

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:11:24 GMT, "Paul Skoczylas"
wrote:
"Tom McCloud" wrote in message ...
Paul, I did a section of the Red Deer,

The Red Deer has many sections. The parts of interest to whitewater paddlers are all upstream of Sundre. The main section starts
where the Forestry Trunk Road crosses the river, at Mountain Aire Lodge.

Paul, That name Sundrie sounds familiar. Faint memories of
crossing the river, turning left (upriver), and in a few hundred
yards, on the left, there is a small park/ picnic area. This was our
take-out. Went up above there maybe 8-9 miles or so. Really can't
recall the put-in, except that it was a short carry, then down a steep
bank onto rock. I think we drove a gravel road over a pretty good
hill looking for a put-in and didn't find anything, so backtracked,
and kind of headed back a trail in the woods. I don't believe we had
as much as 20 cms, but it was fun. I'd do this one again if I was
ever in the neighborhood. Tom McCloud

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Tinkerntom wrote:

Winter time being a great time for story telling, and having been
involved in some story telling on another thread, I thought I would try
moving in to its own topic. I know there are some good stories and
story tellers out there, and we're all ready for a good laugh or sigh.


It's a story all right. As in "Tall Tale."

There is no such thing as a "Triple Black Diamond" at Keystone or anywhere
else in Colorado. It's sort of like telling a story about a class nine
rapid.

I'd like to know how the subject of the story got to the Outback if he
couldn't ski, as it's the third mountain back from the front, and you have
to do quite a bit of skiing to get there. And there's no triple black
diamonds there! At all. Just some greyish blackish ones.

ant

Hey Melissa, that was real purty and to the point. My wife and I love
to just go to the lake, and bob around. No place in particular to go,
just lose yourself in the moment of water and clouds, and a big sky.
Usually after work, and we watch the sun set. It is just too easy to
get caught up in our concrete/asphalt/steel/smoggy rushing world, and
it is very refreshing to step back, and realize that there is so much
more to life.

I first fell in love with boats, when as a ladd, I was allowed by my
parents to go on a sailboat down at Galveston. We never got so far away
that we could not see the dock. But when you get hooked, your a goner.
Before that, I would go to the amusement park, where we could ride the
little boats that go around in circles. You could ride for along time
with a hand full of tickets. My folks would try to get me to ride other
rides, but I was quite content going around in circles. So when I got
to go out on the big sail boat (maybe 15 ft) I think I died and went to
heaven.

Somewhere along the line I saw in a Popular Mech mag, about the folding
boats, and have wanted one for the last 40 years. Last year I finally
bought a Folbot Super, which is an older model (72, last made in mid
80's), that I found on an internet bulletin board. She is old, and
probably way to slow for some of the hotrodders around, but she is
beautiful, and she has a sail rig. I am really looking forward to
getting her on the water this summer.

It is amazing how those dreams get inside you and just ache to see the
light of day. TnT

I have a friend, that thought he was a pretty good skier, and tried the
speed run at A-Basin. He wiped out, about half way down, and left a
trail of skiies and gear scattered along the almost mile long runnout.
When he stopped sliding, he just lay there, and we thought that he was
dead. Afterwards we ask him, and he said he just laid there because
after sliding for approx 3500 ft he was not sure himself whether he was
alive or not. Says he won't do that again! Gives you a real
appreciation for the masters!

Another book that I got to thinking about that I read, and which had a
major impact on me, was "Into the Void." It is amazing what the human
form is capable of bringing onto themselves, and how tough,
enterprising, and foolish we can be, all at the same time! I love the
mountains, and the high places, but I decided that the technical
climbing was for someone else, though I enjoy randonee skiing totally!
TnT

I think I acknowledged that my memory may be fuzzy as to it being the
OutBack, and that it may have been a green run for that matter. That's
what happens when you get older, too many stories, and they get all
mixed up together. However the basic story was correct, so I apologize
to you and all, if you had trouble connecting the dots in my story. TnT

I spent three years in Chiapas, Mex. living with the indians in their
villages. They played a communal sport, where they would kick a ball
like soccer down the trail, trying to get it to the opposing village.
The point was to intercept the opposing team before they got to your
village. Understand, the trails were narrow, and the hill sides steep
and vegetated. It seems that a great deal of time was spent running up
and down the side hills, trying to return the ball to the bounds of
the trail. These games would last for days, and usually only when one
side got totally exhausted. The whole village would come out to play or
watch, and even the watchers would bring food for their team. Everyone
would be shouting and laughing, and carrying on, and apparently having
a good time. Often times when the games got started, it was just a
couple of kids practicing on the trail. No organization, no team
uniforms, etc. They just knew each other, and where each belonged, and
when one team won, it was just for the bragging rights until they got
to playing again.

Now I share all this because we have our own concept of what is sports,
and how do you participate. For some paddling is not a sport, it is
something they do to live. For most of us I expect that it is more
elective. And being elective it is easy to decide that it is not
necessary, if it entails to many discomforts in comparison to the
benefits. Obviously we who are here on this board don't see it that
way.

We also live in a culture that promotes competetive spectator team
sports. Paddling does not generally fit that category, so we are
primarily counter-culture, at least the majority of USA. It may be
different in Canada, but then it wasn't that long ago that it was
considered major transportation in Canada, and maybe then does not have
the same allure for all. Especially when they get in a class, and learn
that it is not all that it is cracked up to be, and that their is some
hard lessons. For some it is communal participation, the spouse who
goes along for the ride.

All kinds of motives, and impossible to figure out for them, and
probably difficult for them to figure for themselves until they get
their feet wet! TnT