On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:33:39 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

It's no coincidence that in the last generation or so of "Dr.
Spock-like" liberal upbringing where a child's need to "express
themselves" is paramount, and that maintaining their self esteem at
all costs is more important than what they do to earn it, that we have
had more trouble than ever with youth violence and underachievers.

The people I know who ran roughshod over their children have, in the
vast majority of cases, turned out much more socially adjusted kids,
who respect the rules of society, and have much less neuroses, and
other social "issues". They are also more likely to pursue higher
education and more productive careers. Those kids who were raised with
"hands off" parents, ended up, if not in the criminal justice system,
they are now working in low pay jobs, with little self respect, and
are more likely to vote for a democrat.

Dave

1) Your last paragraph describes only the people you choose to focus on.
Other than that, you have absolutely no information that allows you to
generalize outside of that small sample.

There's no reason to believe that there would be much difference in
other samplings. As I get older and talk with more people, I am still
told similar stories, from other people in my generation. I have no
reason to believe that my informal survey is not reflective of
reality.

I also have the incidents of school shootings, and school violence in
general, which has been on an increase since I was in school. In my
old high school, when I went there, the worst we ever had to deal with
was an occasional fist fight after school. Now, my old high school has
metal detectors and armed security people in the school.

This can be directly attributed to lackluster parental influence in
the child's discipline. Two working parents and day care child rearing
is probably the root of the problem.


2) In the next to last paragraph, you say "last generation". For the
generation or two before that, you have no way in hell of knowing how many
parents smacked their children around and how many didn't. You simply WANT
to believe in some mythical "good ole days".

I know how I, and most of my friends and other peers were raised. Our
parents demanded to know each and everything we did, where we went,
how long we would be gone, who we were with, numbers where we could be
reached at etc. We were given strict "be home by" times. The
neighborhood parents all kept an eye on the comings and goings of all
the neighborhood kids, and if they saw something "suspicious", it was
reported to the proper parent. If any of us was "out of line", we were
punished for it. I went to bed without dinner on more than a few
occasions before I wised up. When the teachers requested a conference,
the parents listened to the teacher, and took the corrective measures
to deal with their kids. They didn't become defensive and insist that
"their child couldn't possibly do that", and blame the teacher for the
issue.

Like I told you in another thread Doug, I have a fantastic memory for
what happened many years ago. I not only remember such trivial things
as my 7th grade locker combination, I also remember most of my "bad"
deeds and which punishments affected me the most. I can therefore
apply the same techniques to my kid.

My mother, not one to ever take back a punishment, once told me that
if she ever caught me smoking, that she would not sign for my driver's
license or learner's permit. From past experience, I had no reason to
believe that she was not dead serious, and I never took the chance.
Driving a car meant much more to me than looking "cool" while hanging
around with the kids who were smoking.

I had strict upbringing. It was not all "getting smacked around". But
my parents were quick to come down on bad behavior, and they followed
through for the duration, which means that if I was grounded for a
week, I didn't go out until the week was over. There was no
bargaining. Whining about it would only add more time to the
punishment. That's probably why I used to read a lot when I was kid.
There was not much else to do when confined to your room.

I learned the rule of law, and moral conduct as a result. This is
what's lacking in much of today's child rearing.


3) On a 1 to 10 "offense scale", a kid should have to reach a 9-1/2 before
he/she gets wailed on. If a parent lets loose for anything less than that,
he's a lazy sack of **** who doesn't know how to solve problems in an
assertive way that commands respect.

"Strict" parenting does not mean "wailing" on the kid for every thing
they do. Privilege deprivation is usually more effective.

Dave