"DSK" wrote in message
...

... there
are/were ties to some Islamic terrorist groups

No there weren't.

Sorry, Doug, but in fact, there is a link:
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj...r/div/149.html

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote in message
...
... there
are/were ties to some Islamic terrorist groups
No there weren't.
Sorry, Doug, but in fact, there is a link:
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj...r/div/149.html

Now, that's Funny! Notice how he looks like Alfred D. Neuman.

Jim Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote in message
...
... there
are/were ties to some Islamic terrorist groups
No there weren't.
Sorry, Doug, but in fact, there is a link:
http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj...r/div/149.html

Now, that's Funny! Notice how he looks like Alfred D. Neuman.

Jim Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield



Tangentially related: Ms. Rice is undergoing quite a grilling today.
Priceless.

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:20:10 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:

Such as? When have we ever massacred large portions of our population?

Ask the native Americans...they'll tell you.

When you are attacked by hostile people, you will often kill the enemy
in large numbers. Once they are declared the enemy, "slaughter" is
often confused with "decisive victory"


When have we killed people for opposing the government?

Ask the families of those killed at Kent State.

The massacre at Kent State was not sanctioned by the military. It was
the result of panic.

Dave

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:43:36 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:34:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:45:26 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
om...

Dead is dead. Doesn't matter whether your head's cut off, or a .223
round
slices open an artery in your leg and you watch yourself bleed to
death.
Our
methods are no more civilized than theirs.

We don't televise our combat killing. In fact we don't kidnap innocent
non-combatents and execute them as terrorist propaganda.

No. We stick them in a Cuban prison for 3 years and refuse to let them
communicate with the outside world.

Much less brutal.

Dave


It's kidnapping.

Not if the person is an enemy of the state.

Dave


If they cannot communicate outside the prison, how do YOU know they're
enemies of the state?

Because our government said so.

But since you think everything our government says is a lie...........

Dave

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:46:50 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Well, now you are. Fortunately, it was discovered and verified, which
caused
quite a scene.

Not a big enough scene evidently, as it took Watergate to bring him
down.

Unfortunately, a certain percentage of the voting population never changes,
and is happy to believe whatever drivel their leader feeds them.

Then there is the mirror image which are people who believe nothing
that the government tells them.


To listen to these people, it's a wonder our country lasted for as
long as it has, and prospered as well as it has, what with all the
lies, corruption and dirty dealings going on..........


Dave

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:10:50 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .


They said the same thing about Germany and Japan after WWII. They were
wrong then and you're wrong now.

Dave

Here you go, Dave:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/marshall/

The Marshall plan was one of the greatest and most comprehensive
policies ever put in place.

Substitute the word "communism" with the word "Islamic
fundamentalists" and you could apply a similar plan to the middle east
today. The problem, of course, was that while in 1948 the people
looked at the U.S. plan as a bold and courageous plan to bring about
the greater good for the free world today, similar aspirations for the
mid-east, brings cynical criticisms about the true motivation, intent
and the beneficiaries of our plans. We are called "imperialists",
"expansionists", "corporate raiders" etc. The seeds of socialism and
communism have poisoned much of Europe and much of the left in this
country. Most Europeans have the Marshall plan to thank for what they
have now. Instead of being grateful, and offering to help when we once
again assume the role of protector of freedom, they scoff at us,
criticize us, and spit in our faces (And you wonder why so many people
hate the French).

You would be well advised to look at that plan and see where the
similarities lie WRT today's situation.

Dave

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:21:59 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


There were a LOT of small countries in Europe that were sucked under
the iron curtain, and NOT by choice.


They exerted extreme
influence in some places, as did we.

The type of influence was a lot different.

Not it wasn't.



Sometimes, we did it by using
legitimate private companies as surrogates, which almost completely
financed
the local government, thereby controlling it.

That's called capitalism. They had the choice to reject these "private
companies", but they would rather lose some local control, in exchange
for a much higher standard of living for the people.

It's a trick perfected over
several hundred years by England, France, Portugal, Holland, Belgium (as
in
"Congo"), Spain and Italy.

Trick? That's the way business is done. If your enemy is capitalism,
then you start to look like a communist, and your sympathy for N.
Vietnam, China, and the USSR makes more sense.

A branch of Xerox in Germany or Hong Kong: That's healthy capitalism. But,
when a company sets up shop in a small country, uses slave labor or
maintains hideous working conditions, and pays off local officials to look
the other way, that's a bit different.

As long as the people there are not being forced to work, then you
cannot call it "slave labor". Just because they are willing to take
much less pay for a job than we (According to our standards) would
does not make it "Slave labor". You have to remember that the economic
conditions in many of these countries is so poor, that even those
so-called "slave labor" wages is a major step up for many of those
workers.

Here are some examples:
http://www.seen.org/pages/human_rights.shtml

Since you will say the source is suspect,

No, I believe that the core issue is valid. You can't fabricate all of
this stuff. Such is what happens when greed is your motivator. But it
would seem that this issue transcends either U.S. political party as
the Clinton administration failed to act on it.



I'll describe another for you.
When I worked for PaineWebber in the late 1980s, Occidental Petroleum put an
issue up for a vote at one of its stockholder's meetings. In was in the
prospectus. I read it. We discussed it over lunch many times. The issue:
Whether to continue using slave labor in one of the South Asia countries.
Might've been Indonesia. The stockholders barely passed a resolution to stop
the practice. The board of directors was split on the subject.

Of course. The BOD is responsible to the shareholders for bringing
increased profit. It's hard to turn down potential profit, especially
when you are not directly affected by the environmental issues.


If you think local officials were not bought & paid for, you are fill in
the blank.

Sure they were. Very few people can resist a significant jump in
income and standard of living.


Incidentally, if you really believe what you say about the need to fight
Islamic fundamentalists, then you cannot comment negatively on Russia's
foray into Afghanistan, particularly in light of what they've been dealing
with lately.

Ah! The ultimate dilemma. Do we side with the enemy we know, and have
been fighting with for years, or do we side with the enemy we don't
yet know we have? Maybe we made the wrong choice in hindsight. But we
didn't know what would happen back then. That's why hindsight is
always 20/20.


Perhaps, but some people feel we can learn from the past and have 20/50
vision in the future, rather than assume the past offers nothing to learn
from.


Agreed. That's why we should look at post WWII Europe and Japan, and
apply much of the same issues to the present middle east.

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:43:36 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:34:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
m...
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:45:26 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
news:i1cnu0tiskq8s3415tfa0kus2uuq0de7g8@4ax. com...

Dead is dead. Doesn't matter whether your head's cut off, or a .223
round
slices open an artery in your leg and you watch yourself bleed to
death.
Our
methods are no more civilized than theirs.

We don't televise our combat killing. In fact we don't kidnap
innocent
non-combatents and execute them as terrorist propaganda.

No. We stick them in a Cuban prison for 3 years and refuse to let them
communicate with the outside world.

Much less brutal.

Dave


It's kidnapping.

Not if the person is an enemy of the state.

Dave


If they cannot communicate outside the prison, how do YOU know they're
enemies of the state?

Because our government said so.

But since you think everything our government says is a lie...........

Dave



Oh boy.....

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:46:50 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
. ..

Well, now you are. Fortunately, it was discovered and verified, which
caused
quite a scene.

Not a big enough scene evidently, as it took Watergate to bring him
down.

Unfortunately, a certain percentage of the voting population never
changes,
and is happy to believe whatever drivel their leader feeds them.

Then there is the mirror image which are people who believe nothing
that the government tells them.


To listen to these people, it's a wonder our country lasted for as
long as it has, and prospered as well as it has, what with all the
lies, corruption and dirty dealings going on..........


Dave


Oh, I believe some of it. But I question everything, since it's my patriotic
duty to do so. If people didn't do that, this country would not exist.