On 02 Jan 2004 19:25:06 GMT, 123 (Butch Ammon) wrote:

John H,

Regarding the other thread, I found a website where you can do a test to see
where you lean politically. I scored a 25 - exactly the same as George H.W.
Bush. Here's the politicians and their scores to measure by:

Jesse Jackson = 0
Ted Kennedy = 5
Hillary Clinton = 10
Bill Clinton = 15
Colin Powell = 20
George Bush = 25
Jack Kemp = 30
Bob Dole = 35
Ronald Reagan = 40

Interesting website. I wonder where the majority of people score?

Butch Ammon

A 21 for me. This test must be more right biased than the last one.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

John H wrote:

On 02 Jan 2004 19:25:06 GMT, 123 (Butch Ammon) wrote:

John H,

Regarding the other thread, I found a website where you can do a test to see
where you lean politically. I scored a 25 - exactly the same as George H.W.
Bush. Here's the politicians and their scores to measure by:

Jesse Jackson = 0
Ted Kennedy = 5
Hillary Clinton = 10
Bill Clinton = 15
Colin Powell = 20
George Bush = 25
Jack Kemp = 30
Bob Dole = 35
Ronald Reagan = 40

Interesting website. I wonder where the majority of people score?

Butch Ammon

A 21 for me. This test must be more right biased than the last one.

You're such an exciting guy, John.


--
Email sent to is never read.

Come on Harry.... Tell the gang what you got for a score!

Butch Ammon

Butch Ammon wrote:

Come on Harry.... Tell the gang what you got for a score!

Butch Ammon

I didn't bother; the questions were so loaded and I saw no purpose in it.


Email sent to is never read.

Come on Harry.... Tell the gang what you got for a score!

Butch Ammon

I didn't bother; the questions were so loaded and I saw no purpose in it.


Uh huh.... Perhaps your a little intimidated. Hey, could it be that I
successfully did a "Gotcha" after all this time?

Butch Ammon

Butch Ammon wrote:

Come on Harry.... Tell the gang what you got for a score!

Butch Ammon

I didn't bother; the questions were so loaded and I saw no purpose in it.


Uh huh.... Perhaps your a little intimidated. Hey, could it be that I
successfully did a "Gotcha" after all this time?

Butch Ammon


Sigh.

Let's try this one more time, eh, Butch?

Here we go.

I clicked on the site and read through the questions. I determined that
they were "loaded," that they were put together in such a way as to hit
"hot buttons," and therefore I concluded the survey was not valid and
its results would not be valid, and therefore I didn't bother.

I play with words for part of my living, Butch, and I'm quite good at
it. If I recall, you play with database programming and maintenance for
a living, and you are quite good at it. I'm sure you can spot a badly
constructed query at a moment's glance. I wouldn't question your ability
to do that. I can discern a badly constructed "survey" with a moment's
glance.

Got it?

Further, the kinds of political surveys that seem so popular in this
newsgroup are fallacious on their face, especially when they attempt to
liken an individual's result with what is perceived to be the "position"
of a major political figure.

I'll leave it to you to discern why.





--
Email sent to is never read.

Got it. I was poking a little fun before, that's all. No need to get all
uptight. It's just a harmless survey.

Butch Ammon

Harry Krause wrote:
John H wrote:


On 02 Jan 2004 19:25:06 GMT, 123 (Butch Ammon) wrote:


John H,

Regarding the other thread, I found a website where you can do a test to see
where you lean politically. I scored a 25 - exactly the same as George H.W.
Bush. Here's the politicians and their scores to measure by:

Jesse Jackson = 0
Ted Kennedy = 5
Hillary Clinton = 10
Bill Clinton = 15
Colin Powell = 20
George Bush = 25
Jack Kemp = 30
Bob Dole = 35
Ronald Reagan = 40

Interesting website. I wonder where the majority of people score?

Butch Ammon

A 21 for me. This test must be more right biased than the last one.


You're such an exciting guy, John.




Might as well give Harry some ammunition, seeing he's mentally unarmed;
but I concede it's a bit embarrassing:-)

27!! Oops:-)

K

I try to keep a little on topic material if possible so .....


PR Contacts

For media inquiries, please contact the individual listed below:

Harry Krause
ULLICO Inc.
(202) 682-7957



Here's some of Harry's lies for you, just to bring back old memories:-)



Just to make your day, not only was
I a civilian employee in SE Asia, it was in Vietnam, it was during the
war against Vietnam, I did see some horrific sights and I was working at
the time for a U.S. general. Is that straightforward enough for you,
John, or is your amoeba still chasing your synapse


I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer for my staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.



I need more staff because 2004 is a major election year and business
booked to date indicates we'll be drowning in work. We need to hire a
production coordinator, too. It has very little to do with the state of the economy, other than using it as reason to defeat Republicrap
candidates.


I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer for my

staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.











We have first-class benefits, including a top-of-the-line health
insurance plan, a non-contributory defined-benefit pension plan, a 401k,
and a life insurance policy equal to annual salary. We contribute a
share of profits to the 401k on behalf of the employee. Our employees
pay $4.50 for generic prescriptions and $8.00 for non-generics, but
that's going up next year to $10 and $15. New employees get two weeks
vacation the first year, and that goes to three weeks the third year. In
addition, we have 12 paid holidays and we shut down from noon on
Christmas eve to the day after New Year's Day. We also provide 20 days
of paid sick leave a year. And we have an outside company administering
pre-tax flexible bennies for our employees.
Our fringe benefit package follows the trade union model, except, of
course, for the profit contributions to 401k's. Trade unions are
not-for-profit enterprises.
How do these compare to the bennies at your shop?

Paid? Every year? I call "bull****". With 3 weeks vacation, 12 paid
holidays, and 20 paid sick days that's 47 *paid* days off every year. Are
they hourly employees? For a "small business", that's the road to
bankruptcy.

Boy...and you had me going there for a minute.

Not quite so simple, though you are trying hard to make it so. Our
business is up because we're on the cusp of an election year. Our
business always goes up in a major election year.
You could say we're going to be doing very well in 2004 because Bush is
such a total failure.


The 20 paid sick days aren't part of the "paid" days off unless those
days are used. None of our people abuses sick leave. In fact, no one as
yet has even come close to using 20 sick days in one year. They're there
in case they're needed.


Oh, I forgot. We also provide everyone with LTD.

The company provides an insurance plan that pays 50% of an employe's
salary for Long Term Disability. Employes have the option of purchasing
an additional 16.66%, bringing their total to 66.66%. The basic benefit
maximum is $4,000 per month. With the buy up, the limit is increased to
$10,000 per month.




Sure. I'm in the market for a new marine diesel of 420-480 shp. I'm especially
interested in Volvo's TAMD74P EDC, because Volvo has had a lot of experience
with electronic controls in that size diesel. I've dismissed getting a Cat 3208
TA because the technology is so old and because a couple of commercial fishermen
I know who have had 3208's have, basically, burned them out.



Thanks. Yes, Cummins is talked about favorably by some of the guys I've been
talking to. Most of them have had experience with Cats, especially the 3208, and
in recent years some have moved to Volvos.

These are commercial fishermen, mostly, running hulls somewhat similar to what
we're doing.



No, the diesel is for a new boat we're having built.



Hmmm. A fishing/day cruising boat with some range, nice speed, a real soft ride,
offshore capabilities and sleeping/full head(with standup shower
enclosure)/galley accommodations. Fiberglass, although the architect did try to
convince me to go with cold-molded wood, which I do like.
More specifically, I suppose, a lobsta' boat, sort of, if that brings up a
mental image for you.



She'll measure 36' sans a bowsprit x a little more than 12' in beam. The hull
buttom is built down to the keel. There are no chines.
The hull is efficient at displacement and planing speeds. According to the hull
builder, if we keep the weight within certain limits, we'll achieve a WOT of
about 37-38 mph, and a very easy cruise of 30-32 mph on a single diesel of about
420-450 hp. She'll cruise slow and economically, too.
We expect a very smooooooooooth riding boat, able to take on a big headsea at a
pretty good clip without beating up the folks inside.
Fitting out a boat like this is going to be an interesting and stimulating
experience. Basically, we get to spec everything and we end up with a custom
boat

It's Lou Codega. He's a widely known and respected naval architect. He
does Regulator's hulls, too. He's done the Navigator 37. I believe he's
also done designs for Carolina Classic.

Cummins faxed me a bunch of computer generated data today on engine choices for

the new boat.

On the 36-footer, 16,000 pounds displacement:

QSM11 635 hp, 36.3 mph WOT, 32.1 mph at sustained cruise, marine gear ratio of
1.77, turning a four blade 26x35 prop on a 2.50 inch Aquamet 22 shaft. Too much
engine.

QSM11 535 hp at 2300 rpm, 33.3 mph WOT, 29.5 mph at sustained cruise of 2100
rpm, same gear ratio, 24x34 prop. Right on the money.

6CTA8.3 450 hp, 30.6 mph WOT, 27.5 mph at sustained cruise, 2.00:1 gear ratio,
24x31 four blade prop on Aquamet 22 2" shaft.

Cummins tells me its program is "about 8% too conservative."

Looks like the QSM11 535 will be the right engine. Its fuel use is only a little
more than the 450's and a lot less than the 635 hp engine. What I want is a 30
mph sustained cruise speed, and 535 hp will do it. Cummins also figured the boat
at 1000 pounds heavier than our target, which is probably the smart thing to do.
Besides, the QSM is a new, all computerized design.


The hull form is what got to me. The boat has a substantial keel and it is a
built-down keel, right to its bottom, not just "tacked" on. It backs down
beautifully. And it seems to roll one heck of a lot less in a beam sea than the
semi-vee 36 footers I've been on, and especially some large deep vee fishing
boats of about the same size its been my pleasure to fish aboard. I believe it
is a function of the keel and the really low center of gravity. Amazing, for a
boat that is round bilged and fairly flat under the transom. No chines. Just
splash rails forward and aft. A soft, soft ride...which is what I wanted.






Here's just some of his prior lies (in his own words pasted);

I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything was
sold...every
cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started. For near
full-retail, too.


He had just under $1,000,000 on floor plan with a
syndicate of banks led by National Shawmut of Boston. He had been a
solid customer of that back for more than 20 years and they gave him
great rates.



As far as your other complaints, well, almost every president in my memory,
and I *remember* Truman, Eisenhower (who cheated on his wife), Kennedy,
Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush, lied and participated in
deceit to one degree or another, and on issues far more important than who
was giving them blow jobs.

Good lord. I met *every* president in the damned group except Bush, and I
worked once for his father.



My father used to pray that the north shore of LI Sound would be hit by
a mild hurricane. No
one injured, no on-shore property damaged, but lots of boats sunk.
Preferably early in July.


We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold clear, a
broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary assignments
they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we paid
for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full years. So,
we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any, either.
The proceeds were prudently invested.

The PWC was won as
a prize in a raffle.



Never mind that. Why does he have a Bilgeliner in front of his office?
Is it a display of "Boating Don'ts?"
Yeah, when we were in the boat biz, my father always had one or two














"around the back" that he was forced to take in trade. These were sold
as "as is, where is." He made sure the engine would start and run.
Beyond that, it was up to the prospective buyer to decide if he wanted
it. They moved off the lot pretty quickly, partially because my dad's
main store was on a highly trafficked commercial route with lots of
manufacturing and machining and aerospace plants near by. In those days,
workers at these places could fix anything.


Actually, Dipper, I don't think my father ever saw a Bayliner. But he still
called bumpers bumpers.
--



Bayliner wined and dined my father a half dozen times to entice him
into becoming its dealer. His operation was the largest small boat
dealership in its area of New England, and for 30 years, he was the
*exclusive* Evinrude dealer in a densely populated coastal county. He
also handled Mercuries. He never liked Bayliners, and referred to them
as "jerry-built."


From 1947 until he died, he sold more than 500 outboard motors a
year from his stores, accounting for a reasonably high percentage of *all*
outboards sold in his home state for those years.


This is a killer. My father was in the boat business dating back to
right after
the Big War. When he died and I was looking through his warehouse, I found
wrapped in a nuclear fall-out bag (no kidding), a brand-new 1949
Evinrude 8015
50 hp outboard. The motor was a gift to my father from Evinrude for
winning some
outboard stock utility or hydroplane race.

I gave the motor to a friend of my dad's, who worked at the shop as head
mechanic. I don't believe he ever used it and I'm sure it is still
brand-new. I
have no idea who might own it now.



He also built
boats, and I worked on a few, both wood, glass covered wood and
all fiberglass. After he died, however, we sold the biz and I've
just been an occasional boat owner.


Besides, I worked off and on in the
boat business and inherited it when he died. So, as I said, I'm
knee-deep in boat heritage.


Oh,
and I had some friends who died in the service, too, but it wasn't for
what they believed in. They were drafted, shipped to Vietnam and came
back in body bags.


During the war, he turned out experimental brass shell casings
for the
Army and hopped up outboards for the Navy, which wanted to use them on
smaller
landing craft. I had photos at one time of my father with Ole Evinrude
himself.
My mother knew one of Evinrude's wives...she was a minor movie star or
singer...I forgot which. Maybe both.



Have you ever sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii? I have.
Have you ever rounded Cape Horn? I have, twice.
Have you ever transited the Panama Canal? I have.
Have you owned more than 20 boats in your lifetime? I have.
Have you ever sailed large boats competitively? I have.
Have you ever been hundreds of miles from land in a powerboat under your
command? I have.


My father and his chief mechanic once crossed the Atlantic in winter in
a 22'
boat powered by twin outboards. Yes, it is possible, even the fuel. Got a
"fireboat" welcome in NYC.




Here are some:

Hatteras 43' sportfish
Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop
Morgan 33
O'Day 30
Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22
Century Coronado
Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as ever caught a breeze.
Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering
Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes
Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers with various
Evinrudes
Lighting class sailboat
Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat.
Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit)
Alcort Sunfish
Ancarrow Marine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders.
Guaranteed 60
mph. In the late 1950's.
Skimmar brand skiff
Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider)
Dyer Dhow
Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass
Penn Yan runabouts. Wood.
Old Town wood and canvas canoe
Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe



Sometime in the early 1960s, I was driving back from Ft. Leonard Wood to
Kansas City in a nice old MGA I owned at the time. About halfway home it
started raining heavily, I turned on the wipers, and EVERY SINGLE
electrical accessory and light in the car flashed on, there was a large
popping sound and it all blew out at once. And the car caught fire. I
pulled over to the side of the road, watched the fire, removed my
license plate and hitched on home. For all I know, that old MGA is still
there.

Sure was a pretty little car.


Puh-lease, Karen. You've not seen nor have I ever posted one example of
my professional writings on building structure and the effects on it of
hurricane-force winds and seismic activity. I haven't done any of these
in at least 10 year, but at the time I was field researching,
photographing and writing these reports, they were quite accurate,
topical and well-received by their intended audiences.


A small fleet of Polar skiffs were purchased by an inshore bait, tackle

and boat rental business on the ICW in NE Florida. These boats were not
used on open waters. Within 90 days, cracks developed in the liners that
also served as the deck over the flotation in the bottom of the hulls. A
guide I know, one whose boats and engines are supplied to him by
manufacturers, also had a Polar skiff go bad on him for the same reasons
-liner and then hull fractures.














Harry has claimed to have a 20 yrs his junior beautiful wife, he even put a fake pic of a beautiful woman on a website once claiming it was his "young bride", he may have a wife, although I doubt it, we don't like nor tolerate misogynists for long.

Needless to say he's made up many "dramatic" over the top stories over the years about this lie to feed his ego & pretend he's the centre of attention, but as with his boat claims & other crap, there's never once been even a shred of independently verifiable material.

After he stalked Madcow in real life, which was most frightening, I do suspect he's very very dangerous & that this "bride" story is his delusional appropriation of his, probably court ordered, treating psychotherapist as "wife" (it seems he was under lock & key for what?? over a year??? a sexual deviant maybe??), have a read of just a small part of his BS & make up your own mind, it's all about free choice:-)


1. She *is* my bride. There are no rules that determine the end of
"bride-hood." If I want to refer to her as my bride, I may.

2. As a professional writer, I know the rules of language and am entitled to
break them in exercise of my license.

3. I doubt many married women would object to their husbands lovingly
referring to them as brides. The connotations are pleasant.

4. She's 20 years younger than I am.



Naw. What happened was that I handled a couple of "political" consulting
jobs funded out of the DC area to help a few candidates and defeat a
couple of ballot issues. Through no fault of mine, we won each of the
races, so some of the deep pockets types based in the DC area think I
actually *know something* about the process. I was offered a contract
that requires my presence in DC quite frequently. My bride also was
offered a job up here that represented a significant professional career
move. So, we're "up here" much of the time and "down there" the rest of
it, except when we're "somewhere else." I've been back to Jax (well,
really south of Jax) five times since coming "up here" late last summer
and my bride just returned from a business trip there.

I swear this is true.


Here's a funny. My bride had to fly out to San Diego Wednesday and
hitched a ride on her company's corporate jet. They landed in Salina,
Kansas, which is due north of Wichita and Skippy's suburb of Derby.

So when she gets to San Diego, I get a call asking, "What the hell did
you do in Kansas...we didn't fly over one significant patch of
water...?"

Harry, you make over 500 posts a week to this group and you don't own
a boat?
And why are you so crabby?
Maybe these two factors are related?



One has to own something to use it? Hmmm. My bride drives off in her car
every day, but she doesn't own it.

I'm not crabby. You asked for advice I gave you some. I questioned your
wanting to take a very small boat out into high seas and suddenly you
turned sour. It's your pot; you are the one stewing in it.

No, it is the boat of a friend. It is a 24' ProLine center console with,
if I recall, a 225 hp Merc on it. It was a dark and stormy day in
January (1997) when we went out, but the sky cleared once we got out to
the Gulf Stream.


Bride and I caught and released:

1 white marlin
12-15 yellowtail snappers, maybe two pounds each. Pretty, pretty fish.
Assorted red snappers
1 amberjack
2 jack crevalle jacks
1 snook
Nondescript sharks

Did you spend a year as a line psychotherapist at a 650-bed state
hospital for forensic patients?
Did you spend a year as senior psychotherapist at a county facility for
substance abusers?
Did you spend two years as chief of therapy at a private, 200-bed
facility for the mentally and emotionally ill, at which approximately
half the patients were trying to beat drugs or alcohol?
Are you currently chief of therapy for a for a multi-practitioner
practice of some 825 patients, about a third of which are seeking help
for substance abuse problems?


Licensed psychotherapist
Screening as to character and background for each degree earned
On-going screening by faculty while in educational system
Interviews and screenings for required years of internships, plus, at the same
time, supervision by a licensed professional.
Close professional and personal supervision by a licensed therapist for two years
of employment before being allowed to apply for licensure
Licensure background check, submission of recommendations by licensed
practitioners
Four hour written examination on state laws
Five hour written examination on diagnosis, procedure and practice

My wife went through this before becoming licensed. Her final internship was as a
psychotherapist at a 600-bed high security state psychiatric hospital where, on a
daily basis, she was exposed to more danger than your average soldier.

My wife worked for a year as psychotherapist in a Florida 600-bed state
mental institution for forensic patients. She saw and treated numerous
sexual deviants who do a bit more than expose themselves. Such "treatment"
is part of being in the mental health professions.


You see, I'm a nautical psychotherapist, and for only $125 an hour,
until their health insurance runs out, I help Bayliner owners overcome their
feelings of boatable inadequacy.


She is a licensed, practicing
psychotherapist and often tells me I am the sanest person she sees each
day. Which can be taken any way one likes.


1. I'm married to a psychotherapist. Live-in therapy, dontcha know? And much of
Freud is passe.

My ex-wife surpassed the anti-Christ at least a decade ago.

They're not actually "free" moments. I go to boat dealers to round-up
Bayliner owners who are trying to find one who will take their own
version of flotsam and jetsam in on trade.


1. The address listed is not a home address. It is an office.

2. I have three phone numbers. The phone number listed is not one of
mine. It has never been one of mine. The phone number *did* belong to an
after-hours message recording hotline my wife maintained for her most
mentally disturbed patients. Some of these troubled souls were
court-ordered referrals. *Every* call to that phone number--every
call--was recorded AND because of the nature of the line, my wife had
the ability to alert the telephone company to trace the phone number of
every incoming call to that line, *even* if the person making the call
tried to block his number.

Why, you might ask? Because when you are dealing with suicidal people,
they'll liable to tell their therapist over the phone that they are
planning to take their life. If the therapist believes the threat is
real, she or he will want to dispatch emergency srvices and perhaps the
police.

In the years my wife has provided this pro bono service, she has never
received a threatening or abusive call from a mentally ill patient or
court-ordered referral. However, after the ranking Flaming Ass of this
newsgroup posted the hotline number in this newsgroup, she received a
number of abusive, foul-mouthed AND life-threatening calls. These were
mostly directed at me but, of course, I never received them BECAUSE
(duh!) the phone is not mine and I've never answered it.
Naturally, my wife alerted the authorities, with whom she works closely
because of her court-referred patients. The authorities are
investigating the callers and have involved both the FBI *and*
authorities in other states, including Florida, Georgia, California and
Texas. Working with the telephone company, the authorities have been
able to trace the origin of virtually every abusive call. And, of
course, they have the tape recordings of the abusive messages. Several
suspects have been identified. I really don't know what the outcome of
all this will be. We haven't had an update in several weeks, nor are
either of us here that interested in the sleazeballs that would make
such calls.


The phone number, of course, is "wired," so when the obnoxious calls came in
from the idiot rec.boaters, the numbers were easy enough to trace. The local
police handled a complaint, the local telco was involved and when it was
discovered the point of origin was out of state, the FBI got involved. At
least one of the idiots was caught and prosecuted. As far as I can tell, he
has not posted here again

January 1, 2004
Flight Sent Back on Terror Fear, U.S. Officials Say
By ERIC LICHTBLAU


ASHINGTON, Dec. 31 - The American authorities in the last week directed a
United States-bound flight from Mexico to turn around in midair and imposed
extraordinary security measures on at least six other incoming flights
because of terrorist concerns, federal officials said Wednesday.

Officials were so concerned about possible attacks on at least five foreign
flights that landed in the United States, including one on Wednesday night
at Dulles International Airport outside Washington, that they moved the
planes away from the main terminals and rescreened the passengers.

The security moves, along with the cancellation of several flights on Dec.
24 by Air France to Los Angeles, reflect an aggressive new approach toward
guarding United States airspace because of concerns that terrorists may seek
to hijack an international flight. The strategy is an outgrowth of the "high
risk" alert status initiated 11 days ago.

While officials said they wanted to cooperate with other nations to
strengthen security, they also said they were unwilling to let foreign
flights into United States airspace without rigorous security checks.

This week, Tom Ridge, secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, put
foreign airlines on notice that they would be denied entry to American
airspace if they refused to put armed air marshals on any incoming flights
of concern. The move, which met resistance from some countries, came less
than a week after Air France canceled six flights because of American
worries that terrorists might be aboard. The federal officials said that
putting pressure on foreign carriers to use marshals was just one of several
steps they were taking behind the scenes to meet rising concern about
international flights.

The officials said that in the last week they also had "significantly
increased" inspection of air cargo on foreign flights, a source of
widespread concern as a potential mode of attack for terrorists.

Military F-16 fighter jets have also shadowed some foreign flights from Air
France and other airlines arriving at major American cities, including Los
Angeles, an administration official said.

And the federal officials disclosed Wednesday that after the Air France
cancellations, they reached an agreement this week with a French delegation
to impose tougher security on flights that American officials suspect may be
at risk.

A key provision, the officials said, was that the French agreed to give to
United States officials passenger lists for any flights thought to be
suspicious at least one hour before take-off, rather than waiting until the
flight is in the air as is now normally done. American officials said they
wanted to use that agreement as a model for ensuring tighter aviation
security in other nations as well.

"What we're trying to do is establish protocols to be able to vet these
passenger lists before the flight takes off, and that's in the interests of
both parties," said an American official involved in the agreement. "No one
wants to be told when a flight is halfway across the Atlantic that it has to
turn around."

But American officials have shown a willingness to do just that in recent
days if questions arise about a flight's security.

In the case of a foreign carrier's flight this week from Mexico, a
Transportation Security Administration inspector based there told officials
in the United States that passengers boarding a flight for the United States
had not been properly screened, government officials said.

As one official related the exchanged that followed, American transportation
officials told the airline, "You said there were procedures in place for
that flight that weren't there. Turn it around."

The airline agreed to return the plane to Mexico and rescreen the
passengers, and the American authorities allowed the flight to complete its
scheduled route, the official said. Officials refused to disclose the city
of origin or the itinerary for the flight, citing both diplomatic and
national security concerns.

Since the Bush administration put the United States on high terrorist alert
on Dec. 21, some flights have made it to the United States even amid
concerns about their security, officials said.

At Dulles airport, the police surrounded a British Airways flight from
London that landed at 7:05 p.m. Wednesday and directed it to a remote site,
a security official involved in the operation said.

Intelligence developed by American officials indicated that the route of the
flight might be a target of terrorists, and at least one name on the
passenger list appeared to match a name on a terror watch list, the security
official said.

Nothing suspicious turned up in a screening of luggage on the plane, but
some passengers were searched and interviewed late Wednesday night, and
officials said it was unclear whether the flight represented a threat.

"We're out here trying to deter and disrupt attacks," the official said,
"and that's not always immediately going to produce a guy in handcuffs."

In five or six flights coming to the United States from England, Mexico and
elsewhere, officials said, there were concerns about lapses in security in
the city of origin, intelligence about possible terrorist activity, and
sometimes both. Officials said several suspect flights landed at the Los
Angeles International Airport and another at Dulles, but they declined to
provide details on the routes.

In each case, officials said, security officials met the planes and did
"reverse screenings" like the one in Dulles, interviewing passengers and
searching them for explosives, weapons and other contraband.

Before the alert level was raised to orange, or high, such screenings for
flights that had already landed were rare, a security official said.

"Clearly we're in a situation where this is happening much more frequently
than in earlier periods," the official said.

In another instance several days ago, a flight headed for the United States
from Latin America was grounded on the runway for several hours after United
States officials told the air carrier they were not satisfied that
passengers had been adequately screened.

David O'Connor, director of the United States operations for the
International Air Transport Association, a trade group that represents most
international carriers, said one critical challenge facing the United States
in seeking to strengthen air security was that safety standards vary so
widely around the world.

"Some airports and airlines are very secure," he said. "The British, for
example, have been concerned about terrorist attacks long before 9/11, and
they screen passengers and baggage extensively. And in Germany, the same."

But he added, "when you're talking about developing nations in Latin America
and elsewhere, many haven't until recently initiated any real screening
procedures, and that's where you have problems."

John H wrote in message . ..
On 02 Jan 2004 19:25:06 GMT, 123 (Butch Ammon) wrote:

John H,

Regarding the other thread, I found a website where you can do a test to see
where you lean politically. I scored a 25 - exactly the same as George H.W.
Bush. Here's the politicians and their scores to measure by:

Jesse Jackson = 0
Ted Kennedy = 5
Hillary Clinton = 10
Bill Clinton = 15
Colin Powell = 20
George Bush = 25
Jack Kemp = 30
Bob Dole = 35
Ronald Reagan = 40

Interesting website. I wonder where the majority of people score?

Butch Ammon

A 21 for me. This test must be more right biased than the last one.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

Well, of course. If John doesn't believe the results, it's biased!!!!

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

A 21 for me. This test must be more right biased than the last one.


Really? Why not answer each question here so we can see how you arrived at
that score.


1. Generally, do you tend to trust or distrust government's ability to
solve problems?

Trust Distrust

2. Which do you trust mo

The Pentagon or The U.S. Postal Service?
The executive branch orThe legislative branch?
The FBI orThe IRS?
The CIA orThe Peace Corps?
The Joint Chiefs orThe United Nations?

3.What about private institutions and people? Which do you trust more?

Trial Lawyers orDoctors?
Union leaders orBusiness executives?
Professional athletes orTeam owners?

4.The federal government should do more to solve the nation's
problems even if it means higher taxes on (pick as many as you want.):

You
Big corporations
The wealthy
The Middle Class
Small Businesses
None

5. Where should government be cut? (pick as many as you want.)

Eliminate farm subsidies
Eliminate subsidies to the arts
Abolish public broadcasting
Cut entitlement programs (Social Security, Medicaid, etc.)
Cut defense spending
Reduce welfare spending
Reduce foreign aid
Keep illegal immigrants from receiving public education
Reduce environmental regulation
Cut taxes
Don't cut at all

6. Which would do more to guarantee competitive elections?

Term limits Public Financing

7. Who was a better president?

Ronald Reagan
Franklin D.Roosevelt

8. Do you see the ideal America as an ethnic "melting pot" in which
religious, cultural and ethnic distinctions are blurred, or as a nation in
which ethnically diverse groups ought to coexist while retaining their
cultural identity?

Melting pot
Multicultural society

9. Whose political views do you consider more extreme, those of (former)
Surgeon General Joycelyn
Elders or the Rev. Pat Robertson?

Elders
Robertson
Neither

10. Which would curb violent crime most?

Stricter controls on the sale of guns
Mandatory sentences for those who use guns in the commission of a crime
Both

11. In the long run, do you think we can reduce crime more by building more
prisons or providing
more financial assistance to rebuilding our inner cities?

Buildprisons
Rebuild cities
Both


Please indicate whether you agree or disagree with
each of the following statements:

12. Even if it means cutting programs,spending must be cut to reduce the
federal deficit.

Agree
Disagree

13. The federal government is too big.
Agree
Disagree

14. U.S. interests are more seriously at stake in Haiti than they are in
Korea.

Agree
Disagree

15. Gays and lesbians should be able to marry or at least be treated as
married under law if they so desire.

Agree
Disagree

16. The news media is dominated by liberals.

Agree
Disagree

17. The religious right is a threat to our politicalsystem.

Agree
Disagree

18. The federal government should include funds to make abortion services
part of any standard benefits package in health carereform.

Agree
Disagree

19. Deceptive political campaign commercials should be banned.

Agree
Disagree

20. Graphic pornography should be banned.

Agree
Disagree

21. As a society, we should spend more money trying to find a curefor AIDS
than for cancer and heart disease because AIDS threatens youngerpeople.

Agree
Disagree

22. Talk radio shows should be regulated to ensure both sides of a debate
are represented, because talk radio has an unhealthy impact on the political
process.

Agree
Disagree

23. The breakdown of the traditional family is the most serious domestic
crisis facing our society.

Agree
Disagree

24. Women and racial minorities should be given preferences in hiring until
we achieve true gender and racial equality in
America.

Agree
Disagree

25. Certain environmental problems call for government action, even if it
means new programs or increased taxes.

Agree
Disagree