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Old December 19th 03, 05:31 PM
basskisser
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America

Please, righties, read with an open mind:

From Jon Carrol:

An acquaintance of mine, Ted Webster, has thought of a fine bumper
sticker. Goes like this: "If Dean Is Too Liberal Why Don't We All Just
Shoot Ourselves?"

Yes, the dangerous radical who threatens our very way of life is the
last in a long line of zany socialistic Vermont governors. They're
almost Canadian. Leftie Dean cut state income twice and cut the state
sales tax entirely, and increased prison terms for felons.

He is also, of course, opposed to an unprovoked invasion of a foreign
country. He is opposed to lying about the reasons for the attack. This
used to be an honorable opinion. In the past, opposition to war often
came from people who'd served in the previous one. That opinion was
treated seriously, even when it was wrong. Franklin Roosevelt thought
it was necessary to convince the American public that war against the
Germans and Japanese was a good idea. His main opposition came from
conservative Republican senators. Everyone understood why they did not
want to get involved in a European struggle -- the horror that was
World War I was less than 20 years in the past. Vietnam is almost 30
years away; you'd think we might at least entertain the notion that
fighting a war half a world away is a bad idea.

So it used to be OK to hold an opinion different from that held by the
president of the United States. Now doing so leaves you open for
accusations of treason, which is how Howard Dean got to be the
fighting liberal. Swell.

Howard Dean said the United States was rendered "no safer" by the
capture of Saddam Hussein. This is of course true; no one seriously
disputes it. It may be that the capture of Saddam Hussein makes
American soldiers in Iraq safer, although it's too soon to know that.
Let us hope it does; if Iraq turns into a grinding war of attrition,
we'll be chin deep in the Big Muddy with rain predicted.

I'm not sure whether you were watching television when Dean made his
statement. It was like a bomb going off. Commentators could not
believe their ears. The look on their faces was precious. It was all,
"Am I going to lose my job for allowing that on the air?" Those guys
and gals seem to be a little nervous.

So here we all were, rejoicing over the bad dental work and scruffy
appearance of the onetime dictator, and here Dean was raining on our
parade. Typical Vermont behavior -- Calvin Coolidge was no fun at
parties either.

So let's review briefly why the capture of Saddam Hussein does not
make America any safer. On Sept. 11, 2001, there was an unprovoked
attack on American cities. It shortly emerged that this attack was the
work of radical Muslims, what we now call "Jihadists" to differentiate
them from the vast majority of non-radical non-murderous Muslims.

Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a secular nation. Its women were
unveiled; the sexes mingled freely in public places; Shariah was not
the law of the land. Thus and therefore, it is unlikely that Iraq had
anything to do with the Sept. 11 attacks, despite the administration's
attempt to dig up at least one meeting between someone and someone
else somewhere.

It is generally agreed that Osama bin Laden was responsible for those
attacks. Bin Laden is now almost certainly holed up in Pakistan, our
wonderful ally and great good friend. In other words: The guy who
actually attacked us is getting a free ride (and also helping in the
effort to destabilize Afghanistan, our other client state in the
region), while a guy who had nothing to do with attacking us is in
custody.

So what Howard Dean said is not radical or remarkable or innovative. I
mean, he's an interesting guy, and I might even find myself voting for
him, but he's not Roosevelt or anything. He just hasn't signed on to
the Official Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz worldview, which makes him a
suspicious character indeed.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One really interesting thing about Bush is his iron discipline at news
conferences. No matter what the question, he says what he came into
the room to say. It doesn't even need to make sense.

  #2   Report Post  
Old December 19th 03, 07:26 PM
JohnH
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America

On 19 Dec 2003 09:31:05 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

Please, righties, read with an open mind:


Please read the article attached with an open mind.

From Jon Carrol:

An acquaintance of mine, Ted Webster, has thought of a fine bumper
sticker. Goes like this: "If Dean Is Too Liberal Why Don't We All Just
Shoot Ourselves?"

Yes, the dangerous radical who threatens our very way of life is the
last in a long line of zany socialistic Vermont governors. They're
almost Canadian. Leftie Dean cut state income twice and cut the state
sales tax entirely, and increased prison terms for felons.

He is also, of course, opposed to an unprovoked invasion of a foreign
country. He is opposed to lying about the reasons for the attack. This
used to be an honorable opinion. In the past, opposition to war often
came from people who'd served in the previous one. That opinion was
treated seriously, even when it was wrong. Franklin Roosevelt thought
it was necessary to convince the American public that war against the
Germans and Japanese was a good idea. His main opposition came from
conservative Republican senators. Everyone understood why they did not
want to get involved in a European struggle -- the horror that was
World War I was less than 20 years in the past. Vietnam is almost 30
years away; you'd think we might at least entertain the notion that
fighting a war half a world away is a bad idea.

So it used to be OK to hold an opinion different from that held by the
president of the United States. Now doing so leaves you open for
accusations of treason, which is how Howard Dean got to be the
fighting liberal. Swell.

Howard Dean said the United States was rendered "no safer" by the
capture of Saddam Hussein. This is of course true; no one seriously
disputes it. It may be that the capture of Saddam Hussein makes
American soldiers in Iraq safer, although it's too soon to know that.
Let us hope it does; if Iraq turns into a grinding war of attrition,
we'll be chin deep in the Big Muddy with rain predicted.

I'm not sure whether you were watching television when Dean made his
statement. It was like a bomb going off. Commentators could not
believe their ears. The look on their faces was precious. It was all,
"Am I going to lose my job for allowing that on the air?" Those guys
and gals seem to be a little nervous.

So here we all were, rejoicing over the bad dental work and scruffy
appearance of the onetime dictator, and here Dean was raining on our
parade. Typical Vermont behavior -- Calvin Coolidge was no fun at
parties either.

So let's review briefly why the capture of Saddam Hussein does not
make America any safer. On Sept. 11, 2001, there was an unprovoked
attack on American cities. It shortly emerged that this attack was the
work of radical Muslims, what we now call "Jihadists" to differentiate
them from the vast majority of non-radical non-murderous Muslims.

Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a secular nation. Its women were
unveiled; the sexes mingled freely in public places; Shariah was not
the law of the land. Thus and therefore, it is unlikely that Iraq had
anything to do with the Sept. 11 attacks, despite the administration's
attempt to dig up at least one meeting between someone and someone
else somewhere.

It is generally agreed that Osama bin Laden was responsible for those
attacks. Bin Laden is now almost certainly holed up in Pakistan, our
wonderful ally and great good friend. In other words: The guy who
actually attacked us is getting a free ride (and also helping in the
effort to destabilize Afghanistan, our other client state in the
region), while a guy who had nothing to do with attacking us is in
custody.

So what Howard Dean said is not radical or remarkable or innovative. I
mean, he's an interesting guy, and I might even find myself voting for
him, but he's not Roosevelt or anything. He just hasn't signed on to
the Official Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz worldview, which makes him a
suspicious character indeed.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One really interesting thing about Bush is his iron discipline at news
conferences. No matter what the question, he says what he came into
the room to say. It doesn't even need to make sense.


And then there is this from the Washington Post, not a reputed conservative
newspaper:



Dean's Remarks Give Rivals Talking Points
His Readiness to Lead Is Questioned
By Jim VandeHei and Jonathan Finer
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, December 18, 2003; Page A01


BURLINGTON, Vt. -- Howard Dean's penchant for flippant and sometimes false
statements is generating increased criticism from his Democratic presidential
rivals and raising new questions about his ability to emerge as a nominee who
can withstand intense, sustained scrutiny and defeat President Bush.

Dean, for instance, recently spoke of a "most interesting theory" that Saudi
Arabia had "warned" Bush about the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Although
Dean said he does not believe Bush was tipped off about the assaults that killed
nearly 3,000, he has made no apologies for raising the rumor.

"How is what I did different from what Dick Cheney or George Bush . . . did
during the time of the buildup of the invasion of Iraq?" the former Vermont
governor said Tuesday night aboard his campaign plane. "There were all these
theories that they mentioned. Many of them turned out not to be true. The
difference is that I acknowledged that I did not believe the theory I was
putting out."

Bush this week called the theory an "absurd insinuation."

Dean's remarks, his critics say, are in keeping with his history of making
statements that are mean-spirited or misleading. He has distorted his past
support for raising the retirement age for Social Security and slowing
Medicare's growth. He has falsely said he was the only Democratic presidential
candidate talking about race before white audiences. And he made allegations --
some during his years as governor -- that turned out to be untrue.

After saying at his last gubernatorial news conference that he was sealing his
official records to avoid political embarrassment, Dean now says he was joking
and is not sure what is in the files.

When Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.) unveiled his health care plan in April,
Dean, through his campaign, belittled the lawmaker's record on the subject. Dean
later walked away from the statement, saying it did not reflect his views. But
this fall, in debates and TV ads, Dean has resurrected the criticism, accusing
his congressional rivals, including Gephardt, of producing only rhetoric on
health care in comparison to his record in Vermont.

In recent days, Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) said Dean lacks the "credibility"
to be president and accused him of misleading voters about past remarks on Iraq.
One example cited by Kerry's campaign: Dean recently said, "I never said Saddam
was a danger to the United States. Ever." But in September 2002, Dean told CBS's
"Face the Nation": "There is no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the
United States. The question is: Is he an immediate threat?"

With polls suggesting Dean is pulling away from his rivals, they are stepping up
their criticisms on several fronts, including foreign policy, government
experience and credibility. Dean spokesman Jay Carson, asked about the
challenges to his boss's veracity, said Wednesday: "That's all they do now:
attack Howard Dean."

Last week, after Dean denied providing a tax break as governor that benefited
Enron Corp. -- which a published report showed he did -- Gephardt said: "Once
again, Howard Dean refuses to admit the truth. You can't beat George W. Bush if
you can't tell the truth about your own record."

Tricia Enright, a Dean spokeswoman, called the quarrel a difference of
"interpretation." Dean, she said, restructured the Vermont tax code for scores
of companies and did not provide a specific break to Enron.

To be sure, plenty of presidential candidates have bent facts and stretched
figures to sharpen a point or blunt criticism. And interviews this year suggest
that many voters give Dean high marks for speaking his mind.

"To a great extent, the public does not give a damn" about the claims against
Dean, said former representative Tony Coelho (D-Calif.), chairman of Al Gore's
2000 campaign. Voters want straight-talking leaders, he said, and former
governors such as Dean have "a tendency to say what they think without having
everything checked out before they do things."

On Tuesday, when several rivals criticized him for saying America is not safer
after Hussein's capture, Dean did not back away. "You know me; if I think
something's true, I say it," he told reporters. But critics note he sometimes
says things that are not true.

In January, Dean told an abortion rights audience about a young patient he
believed had been impregnated by her father. He was explaining why he opposes
parental notification requirements for girls and young women seeking an
abortion. But Dean later told Jake Tapper of Salon.com that he learned several
years ago that "her father was not the father of her child; it was more
complicated than that."

Carson said Wednesday that Dean's January anecdote "wasn't misleading at all.
The story illustrates the downside of [mandatory] parental notification, and is
an example from the life experience of the governor."

Some of Dean's opponents in his gubernatorial campaigns say he was prone to
misleading statements then.

In a 1998 debate, Dean and GOP candidate Ruth Dwyer argued over new regulations
for large farms in Vermont. Dwyer told of Bristol farmer Bob Hill, who struggled
to build a barn for his 600 cows while complying with the state's strict permit
requirements.

The next day, Dean told the Associated Press he had "done a little research on
that farmer. He's in violation of the natural resource conservation service
laws." Dean later acknowledged he was wrong and apologized to Hill.

Several Vermont legislators from both parties who served while Dean was governor
said they rarely found cause to question his honesty and chalked up his
controversial comments to misspeaking. "He could be trusted and knew better than
to lie to us," said Cheryl Rivers, a former Democratic state senator who
sometimes clashed with Dean. "Yes, he would shoot from the hip, but it was not
deliberate or malicious."

But lately, as he courts liberal Democrats nationwide, Dean has distorted
portions of his record as governor, when he was generally considered a centrist.
He has repeatedly denied siding with Republicans such as then-Speaker Newt
Gingrich (R-Ga.) in 1995 in calling for slowing Medicare's annual growth from 10
percent to 7 percent, even though he told a Vermont newspaper he "fully
subscribed" to the idea.

Vermont Abenaki Indian leaders said they were outraged last month to see Dean
onstage at a Native American conference in Albuquerque. For more than a decade,
they said, his administration vigorously opposed their quest for state and
federal recognition, contending the Indians might make land claims and bring
casinos to Vermont.

Dean drew raucous applause from his New Mexico audience when he endorsed the
benefits of tribal gambling establishments. "Needless to say, to hear him say
onstage in Albuquerque that he was in favor of gaming for federally recognized
tribes came as a big shock to a lot of people in Vermont," said Jeff Benay, a
Dean appointee who heads the Vermont Governor's Advisory Council on Indian
Affairs and who has advised Dean's campaign.

Carson, responding Wednesday to the Abenaki issue, said: "It would be
inappropriate for the state to recognize them before the federal government
does."

The dust-up over the Saudi question began Dec. 1, on WAMU-FM's nationally
syndicated "Diane Rehm Show," when Dean was asked why Bush was suppressing
information from a commission looking into the Sept. 11 attacks.

"The most interesting theory that I've heard so far -- which is nothing more
than a theory, it can't be proved -- is that he was warned ahead of time by the
Saudis," Dean replied. "Now who knows what the real situation is? But the
trouble is by suppressing that kind of information, you lead to those kinds of
theories, whether they have any truth to them or not, and they get repeated as
fact."

When asked a few days later on Fox News why he said it, Dean said, "because
there are people who believe it. . . . I don't believe it . . . but it would be
nice to know." A campaign aide said Dean heard the rumor from various people on
the campaign trail.


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
  #3   Report Post  
Old December 20th 03, 02:26 AM
K Smith
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America

basskisser wrote:
Please, righties, read with an open mind:


Always happy to try & keep up with the latest left spruik:-)

From Jon Carrol:

An acquaintance of mine, Ted Webster, has thought of a fine bumper
sticker. Goes like this: "If Dean Is Too Liberal Why Don't We All Just
Shoot Ourselves?"

Yes, the dangerous radical who threatens our very way of life is the
last in a long line of zany socialistic Vermont governors. They're
almost Canadian.


So it seems the very fears the world hold about this lefty loon are
true!!! Even his own side agree this is the perception??? So there must
be some reason millions hold it???

Leftie Dean cut state income twice and cut the state
sales tax entirely, and increased prison terms for felons.


Gee now there a classic lefty tactic, take a couple of things & say
that specifies the bloke; come on atl man even you're not that stupid,
or are you?? So I guess he played golf the rest of the time?? or was he
busy doing lefty governor stuff, like telling people how to live their
lives, or passing laws redistributing wealth from those that work to
earn it to those that just claim it; Harry style??


He is also, of course, opposed to an unprovoked invasion of a foreign
country.


So he's a liar then yes?? The provocation was the sneek attack on a
civilian city which killed thousands of non military people. That was
the provocation, there were a few others also, afghanistan?? they were a
base for the attackers & wouldn't/couldn't do anything about it, Iraq,
it was seen as a risk so you gave them endless opportunities to just
comply with the efforts to verify the truth, however they chose to play
games & thumb their nose at you so they were easily taken over. So now
your boy Dean is just another lying BS lefty like Harry.

He is opposed to lying about the reasons for the attack.

There were no lies from the Pres. he was acting in good faith on the
material provided, the thing is at any time saddam could have come clean
& just let full open unhindered inspections, however they didn't. I bet
the next dictator will now:-) Libya just came ti heel why??? becasue
it's clear they better start behaving or .................

This
used to be an honorable opinion.


It's not an "opinion" it's a typical fabricated lie from the left, have
a look at Harry he just fabricates lies, seems this Dean bloke does
likewise.

In the past, opposition to war often
came from people who'd served in the previous one. That opinion was
treated seriously, even when it was wrong. Franklin Roosevelt thought
it was necessary to convince the American public that war against the
Germans and Japanese was a good idea. His main opposition came from
conservative Republican senators. Everyone understood why they did not
want to get involved in a European struggle -- the horror that was
World War I was less than 20 years in the past. Vietnam is almost 30
years away; you'd think we might at least entertain the notion that
fighting a war half a world away is a bad idea.


What a load of waffle, total crap. The attack on you was worse than
Pearl Harbour, worse that most any attack in history, that is was
unprovoked & completely on innocent citizens means your cry baby cowards
corner BS is seen for what it is.


So it used to be OK to hold an opinion different from that held by the
president of the United States. Now doing so leaves you open for
accusations of treason, which is how Howard Dean got to be the
fighting liberal. Swell.


You (& us) are at war!!!! Don't you get it yet?? These people want to
come into your cities & kill people en mass!!! So yes to give then
support while it might not be "treason" it's certainly sick behaviour,
for anyone trying for the office of president to be doing it is
dangerous in the extreme.


Howard Dean said the United States was rendered "no safer" by the
capture of Saddam Hussein. This is of course true; no one seriously
disputes it.


I do!!! Many of "his" followers will go way now = safer for the US,
Those who imagined somehow that he would get back into power?? have now
seen they won't = safer for US. Those countries that opposed you france
& fgmy will be seen for what they are & have through history always been
lefty cowards & sympathisers = safer US, When he spills the beans over
the next few years about all sorts of things Bush will be easily
re-elected = safer US.

It may be that the capture of Saddam Hussein makes
American soldiers in Iraq safer, although it's too soon to know that.
Let us hope it does; if Iraq turns into a grinding war of attrition,
we'll be chin deep in the Big Muddy with rain predicted.

Iraq is won, get used to it, there will be ongoing terrorist attacks,
mainly moslem against iraqi but over time that will settle & democracy
will be real in yet another country for the benefit of the people & the
overall benefit of the US.

I'm not sure whether you were watching television when Dean made his
statement. It was like a bomb going off. Commentators could not
believe their ears. The look on their faces was precious. It was all,
"Am I going to lose my job for allowing that on the air?" Those guys
and gals seem to be a little nervous.

So here we all were, rejoicing over the bad dental work and scruffy
appearance of the onetime dictator, and here Dean was raining on our
parade. Typical Vermont behavior -- Calvin Coolidge was no fun at
parties either.

So let's review briefly why the capture of Saddam Hussein does not
make America any safer. On Sept. 11, 2001, there was an unprovoked
attack on American cities. It shortly emerged that this attack was the
work of radical Muslims, what we now call "Jihadists" to differentiate
them from the vast majority of non-radical non-murderous Muslims.


Gee you are sick people you really are, on the one hand you play up the
ongoing terrorist attacks as Bush's fault on the other you say 911
wasn't the terrorists fault, you're sick nothing much else.


Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a secular nation. Its women were
unveiled; the sexes mingled freely in public places; Shariah was not
the law of the land. Thus and therefore, it is unlikely that Iraq had
anything to do with the Sept. 11 attacks, despite the administration's
attempt to dig up at least one meeting between someone and someone
else somewhere.


Unlikely?? Gee now there';s more of the lefts' BS & rumour spreading,
but no matter as time goes on saddam will help join the dots & it will
all get reported over time. I'll enjoy watching the left under the drip
I really will!!



It is generally agreed that Osama bin Laden was responsible for those
attacks. Bin Laden is now almost certainly holed up in Pakistan, our
wonderful ally and great good friend. In other words: The guy who
actually attacked us is getting a free ride (and also helping in the
effort to destabilize Afghanistan, our other client state in the
region), while a guy who had nothing to do with attacking us is in
custody.


So the left is going to put it's hands over it's ears & eyes but keep
telling lies at the top of it's voice?? Gee this is going to be better
than even I had hoped!!!


So what Howard Dean said is not radical or remarkable or innovative. I
mean, he's an interesting guy, and I might even find myself voting for
him, but he's not Roosevelt or anything. He just hasn't signed on to
the Official Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz worldview, which makes him a
suspicious character indeed.


He's desperate is what he is & that the left would even consider him
means they've given up already.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One really interesting thing about Bush is his iron discipline at news
conferences. No matter what the question, he says what he came into
the room to say. It doesn't even need to make sense.


But it usually does, just most of the uneducated left can't understand it.


K

Here's some of Harry's lies for you, just to bring back old memories:-)




I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another

writer for my







staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.


I need more staff because 2004 is a major election year and business
booked to date indicates we'll be drowning in work. We need to hire a
production coordinator, too. It has very little to do with the state of
the economy, other than using it as reason to defeat Republicrap
candidates.


I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer

for my

staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.










We have first-class benefits, including a top-of-the-line health
insurance plan, a non-contributory defined-benefit pension plan, a 401k,
and a life insurance policy equal to annual salary. We contribute a
share of profits to the 401k on behalf of the employee. Our employees
pay $4.50 for generic prescriptions and $8.00 for non-generics, but
that's going up next year to $10 and $15. New employees get two weeks
vacation the first year, and that goes to three weeks the third year. In
addition, we have 12 paid holidays and we shut down from noon on
Christmas eve to the day after New Year's Day. We also provide 20 days
of paid sick leave a year. And we have an outside company administering
pre-tax flexible bennies for our employees.
Our fringe benefit package follows the trade union model, except, of
course, for the profit contributions to 401k's. Trade unions are
not-for-profit enterprises.
How do these compare to the bennies at your shop?

Paid? Every year? I call "bull****". With 3 weeks vacation, 12 paid
holidays, and 20 paid sick days that's 47 *paid* days off every

year. Are
they hourly employees? For a "small business", that's the road to
bankruptcy.

Boy...and you had me going there for a minute.

Not quite so simple, though you are trying hard to make it so. Our
business is up because we're on the cusp of an election year. Our
business always goes up in a major election year.
You could say we're going to be doing very well in 2004 because Bush is
such a total failure.


The 20 paid sick days aren't part of the "paid" days off unless those
days are used. None of our people abuses sick leave. In fact, no one as
yet has even come close to using 20 sick days in one year. They're there
in case they're needed.


Oh, I forgot. We also provide everyone with LTD.

The company provides an insurance plan that pays 50% of an employe's
salary for Long Term Disability. Employes have the option of purchasing
an additional 16.66%, bringing their total to 66.66%. The basic benefit
maximum is $4,000 per month. With the buy up, the limit is increased to
$10,000 per month.



Here's just some of his prior lies (in his own words pasted);

I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season.

Everything was
sold...every
cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started. For near
full-retail, too.


He had just under $1,000,000 on floor plan with a
syndicate of banks led by National Shawmut of Boston. He had been a
solid customer of that back for more than 20 years and they gave him
great rates.



As far as your other complaints, well, almost every president in

my memory,
and I *remember* Truman, Eisenhower (who cheated on his wife),

Kennedy,
Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush, lied and

participated in
deceit to one degree or another, and on issues far more

important than who
was giving them blow jobs.

Good lord. I met *every* president in the damned group except

Bush, and I
worked once for his father.



My father used to pray that the north shore of LI Sound would be

hit by
a mild hurricane. No
one injured, no on-shore property damaged, but lots of boats sunk.
Preferably early in July.


We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold

clear, a
broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary

assignments
they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we

paid
for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full

years. So,
we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any,

either.
The proceeds were prudently invested.

The PWC was won as
a prize in a raffle.



Never mind that. Why does he have a Bilgeliner in front of his

office?
Is it a display of "Boating Don'ts?"
Yeah, when we were in the boat biz, my father always had one or two












"around the back" that he was forced to take in trade. These

were sold
as "as is, where is." He made sure the engine would start and run.
Beyond that, it was up to the prospective buyer to decide if he

wanted
it. They moved off the lot pretty quickly, partially because my

dad's
main store was on a highly trafficked commercial route with lots of
manufacturing and machining and aerospace plants near by. In

those days,
workers at these places could fix anything.


Actually, Dipper, I don't think my father ever saw a Bayliner.

But he still
called bumpers bumpers.
--



Bayliner wined and dined my father a half dozen times to

entice him
into becoming its dealer. His operation was the largest small boat
dealership in its area of New England, and for 30 years, he was the
*exclusive* Evinrude dealer in a densely populated coastal

county. He
also handled Mercuries. He never liked Bayliners, and referred

to them
as "jerry-built."


From 1947 until he died, he sold more than 500 outboard motors a
year from his stores, accounting for a reasonably high

percentage of *all*
outboards sold in his home state for those years.


This is a killer. My father was in the boat business dating back to
right after
the Big War. When he died and I was looking through his

warehouse, I found
wrapped in a nuclear fall-out bag (no kidding), a brand-new 1949
Evinrude 8015
50 hp outboard. The motor was a gift to my father from Evinrude for
winning some
outboard stock utility or hydroplane race.

I gave the motor to a friend of my dad's, who worked at the shop

as head
mechanic. I don't believe he ever used it and I'm sure it is still
brand-new. I
have no idea who might own it now.



He also built
boats, and I worked on a few, both wood, glass covered wood and
all fiberglass. After he died, however, we sold the biz and I've
just been an occasional boat owner.


Besides, I worked off and on in the
boat business and inherited it when he died. So, as I said, I'm
knee-deep in boat heritage.


Oh,
and I had some friends who died in the service, too, but it

wasn't for
what they believed in. They were drafted, shipped to Vietnam and

came
back in body bags.


During the war, he turned out experimental brass shell casings
for the
Army and hopped up outboards for the Navy, which wanted to use

them on
smaller
landing craft. I had photos at one time of my father with Ole

Evinrude
himself.
My mother knew one of Evinrude's wives...she was a minor movie

star or
singer...I forgot which. Maybe both.



Have you ever sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii? I have.
Have you ever rounded Cape Horn? I have, twice.
Have you ever transited the Panama Canal? I have.
Have you owned more than 20 boats in your lifetime? I have.
Have you ever sailed large boats competitively? I have.
Have you ever been hundreds of miles from land in a powerboat

under your
command? I have.


My father and his chief mechanic once crossed the Atlantic in

winter in
a 22'
boat powered by twin outboards. Yes, it is possible, even the

fuel. Got a
"fireboat" welcome in NYC.




Here are some:

Hatteras 43' sportfish
Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop
Morgan 33
O'Day 30
Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22
Century Coronado
Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as ever caught a breeze.
Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering
Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes
Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers

with various
Evinrudes
Lighting class sailboat
Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat.
Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit)
Alcort Sunfish
Ancarrow Marine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders.
Guaranteed 60
mph. In the late 1950's.
Skimmar brand skiff
Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider)
Dyer Dhow
Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass
Penn Yan runabouts. Wood.
Old Town wood and canvas canoe
Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe



Sometime in the early 1960s, I was driving back from Ft. Leonard

Wood to
Kansas City in a nice old MGA I owned at the time. About halfway

home it
started raining heavily, I turned on the wipers, and EVERY SINGLE
electrical accessory and light in the car flashed on, there was

a large
popping sound and it all blew out at once. And the car caught

fire. I
pulled over to the side of the road, watched the fire, removed my
license plate and hitched on home. For all I know, that old MGA

is still
there.

Sure was a pretty little car.


Puh-lease, Karen. You've not seen nor have I ever posted one

example of
my professional writings on building structure and the effects on

it of
hurricane-force winds and seismic activity. I haven't done any of

these
in at least 10 year, but at the time I was field researching,
photographing and writing these reports, they were quite accurate,
topical and well-received by their intended audiences.


A small fleet of Polar skiffs were purchased by an inshore bait,

tackle

and boat rental business on the ICW in NE Florida. These boats

were not
used on open waters. Within 90 days, cracks developed in the

liners that
also served as the deck over the flotation in the bottom of the

hulls. A
guide I know, one whose boats and engines are supplied to him by
manufacturers, also had a Polar skiff go bad on him for the

same reasons
-liner and then hull fractures.












Harry has claimed to have a 20 yrs his junior beautiful wife, he

even put a fake pic of a beautiful woman on a website once claiming it
was his "young bride", he may have a wife, although I doubt it, we don't
like nor tolerate misogynists for long.

Needless to say he's made up many "dramatic" over the top

stories over the years about this lie to feed his ego & pretend he's the
centre of attention, but as with his boat claims & other crap, there's
never once been even a shred of independently verifiable material.

After he stalked Madcow in real life, which was most

frightening, I do suspect he's very very dangerous & that this "bride"
story is his delusional appropriation of his, probably court ordered,
treating psychotherapist as "wife" (it seems he was under lock & key for
what?? over a year??? a sexual deviant maybe??), have a read of just a
small part of his BS & make up your own mind, it's all about free choice:-)


1. She *is* my bride. There are no rules that determine the end of
"bride-hood." If I want to refer to her as my bride, I may.

2. As a professional writer, I know the rules of language and am

entitled to
break them in exercise of my license.

3. I doubt many married women would object to their husbands lovingly
referring to them as brides. The connotations are pleasant.

4. She's 20 years younger than I am.



Naw. What happened was that I handled a couple of "political"

consulting
jobs funded out of the DC area to help a few candidates and defeat a
couple of ballot issues. Through no fault of mine, we won each of the
races, so some of the deep pockets types based in the DC area think I
actually *know something* about the process. I was offered a contract
that requires my presence in DC quite frequently. My bride also was
offered a job up here that represented a significant professional

career
move. So, we're "up here" much of the time and "down there" the

rest of
it, except when we're "somewhere else." I've been back to Jax (well,
really south of Jax) five times since coming "up here" late last

summer
and my bride just returned from a business trip there.

I swear this is true.


Here's a funny. My bride had to fly out to San Diego Wednesday and
hitched a ride on her company's corporate jet. They landed in Salina,
Kansas, which is due north of Wichita and Skippy's suburb of Derby.

So when she gets to San Diego, I get a call asking, "What the hell did
you do in Kansas...we didn't fly over one significant patch of
water...?"

Harry, you make over 500 posts a week to this group and you don't own
a boat?
And why are you so crabby?
Maybe these two factors are related?



One has to own something to use it? Hmmm. My bride drives off in

her car
every day, but she doesn't own it.

I'm not crabby. You asked for advice I gave you some. I questioned

your
wanting to take a very small boat out into high seas and suddenly you
turned sour. It's your pot; you are the one stewing in it.

No, it is the boat of a friend. It is a 24' ProLine center console

with,
if I recall, a 225 hp Merc on it. It was a dark and stormy day in
January (1997) when we went out, but the sky cleared once we got

out to
the Gulf Stream.


Bride and I caught and released:

1 white marlin
12-15 yellowtail snappers, maybe two pounds each. Pretty, pretty fish.
Assorted red snappers
1 amberjack
2 jack crevalle jacks
1 snook
Nondescript sharks

Did you spend a year as a line psychotherapist at a 650-bed state
hospital for forensic patients?
Did you spend a year as senior psychotherapist at a county

facility for
substance abusers?
Did you spend two years as chief of therapy at a private, 200-bed
facility for the mentally and emotionally ill, at which approximately
half the patients were trying to beat drugs or alcohol?
Are you currently chief of therapy for a for a multi-practitioner
practice of some 825 patients, about a third of which are seeking help
for substance abuse problems?


Licensed psychotherapist
Screening as to character and background for each degree earned
On-going screening by faculty while in educational system
Interviews and screenings for required years of internships, plus,

at the same
time, supervision by a licensed professional.
Close professional and personal supervision by a licensed

therapist for two years
of employment before being allowed to apply for licensure
Licensure background check, submission of recommendations by licensed
practitioners
Four hour written examination on state laws
Five hour written examination on diagnosis, procedure and practice

My wife went through this before becoming licensed. Her final

internship was as a
psychotherapist at a 600-bed high security state psychiatric

hospital where, on a
daily basis, she was exposed to more danger than your average soldier.

My wife worked for a year as psychotherapist in a Florida 600-bed

state
mental institution for forensic patients. She saw and treated numerous
sexual deviants who do a bit more than expose themselves. Such

"treatment"
is part of being in the mental health professions.


You see, I'm a nautical psychotherapist, and for only $125 an hour,
until their health insurance runs out, I help Bayliner owners

overcome their
feelings of boatable inadequacy.


She is a licensed, practicing
psychotherapist and often tells me I am the sanest person she sees

each
day. Which can be taken any way one likes.


1. I'm married to a psychotherapist. Live-in therapy, dontcha

know? And much of
Freud is passe.

My ex-wife surpassed the anti-Christ at least a decade ago.

They're not actually "free" moments. I go to boat dealers to round-up
Bayliner owners who are trying to find one who will take their own
version of flotsam and jetsam in on trade.


1. The address listed is not a home address. It is an office.

2. I have three phone numbers. The phone number listed is not one of
mine. It has never been one of mine. The phone number *did* belong

to an
after-hours message recording hotline my wife maintained for her most
mentally disturbed patients. Some of these troubled souls were
court-ordered referrals. *Every* call to that phone number--every
call--was recorded AND because of the nature of the line, my wife had
the ability to alert the telephone company to trace the phone

number of
every incoming call to that line, *even* if the person making the call
tried to block his number.

Why, you might ask? Because when you are dealing with suicidal people,
they'll liable to tell their therapist over the phone that they are
planning to take their life. If the therapist believes the threat is
real, she or he will want to dispatch emergency srvices and

perhaps the
police.

In the years my wife has provided this pro bono service, she has never
received a threatening or abusive call from a mentally ill patient or
court-ordered referral. However, after the ranking Flaming Ass of this
newsgroup posted the hotline number in this newsgroup, she received a
number of abusive, foul-mouthed AND life-threatening calls. These were
mostly directed at me but, of course, I never received them BECAUSE
(duh!) the phone is not mine and I've never answered it.
Naturally, my wife alerted the authorities, with whom she works

closely
because of her court-referred patients. The authorities are
investigating the callers and have involved both the FBI *and*
authorities in other states, including Florida, Georgia,

California and
Texas. Working with the telephone company, the authorities have been
able to trace the origin of virtually every abusive call. And, of
course, they have the tape recordings of the abusive messages. Several
suspects have been identified. I really don't know what the outcome of
all this will be. We haven't had an update in several weeks, nor are
either of us here that interested in the sleazeballs that would make
such calls.


The phone number, of course, is "wired," so when the obnoxious

calls came in
from the idiot rec.boaters, the numbers were easy enough to trace.

The local
police handled a complaint, the local telco was involved and when

it was
discovered the point of origin was out of state, the FBI got

involved. At
least one of the idiots was caught and prosecuted. As far as I can

tell, he
has not posted here again


  #4   Report Post  
Old December 20th 03, 01:29 PM
NOYB
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America


"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


which makes him a
suspicious character indeed.


What makes Dean a suspicious character is the fact that he sealed all of his
records from when he was governor.



  #5   Report Post  
Old December 20th 03, 02:10 PM
thunder
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:29:29 +0000, NOYB wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


which makes him a
suspicious character indeed.


What makes Dean a suspicious character is the fact that he sealed all of
his records from when he was governor.


Yup, it seems a rather stupid thing to do when running for President. But
in fairness, how about GWB's records.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com...es/000897.html


  #6   Report Post  
Old December 20th 03, 02:20 PM
NOYB
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America


"thunder" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:29:29 +0000, NOYB wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


which makes him a
suspicious character indeed.


What makes Dean a suspicious character is the fact that he sealed all of
his records from when he was governor.


Yup, it seems a rather stupid thing to do when running for President. But
in fairness, how about GWB's records.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com...es/000897.html


I'm not interested in what Dean did while in college...'cause it's not
relevant. However, the decisions that he made while an elected
representative (governor of Vermont) *are* very relevant.

The only good things to come out of Vermont are maple syrup, and Ben &
Jerry's ice cream (the product...not the men).





  #7   Report Post  
Old December 20th 03, 02:41 PM
thunder
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:20:02 +0000, NOYB wrote:


"thunder" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:29:29 +0000, NOYB wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


which makes him a
suspicious character indeed.

What makes Dean a suspicious character is the fact that he sealed all
of his records from when he was governor.


Yup, it seems a rather stupid thing to do when running for President.
But in fairness, how about GWB's records.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com...es/000897.html


I'm not interested in what Dean did while in college...'cause it's not
relevant. However, the decisions that he made while an elected
representative (governor of Vermont) *are* very relevant.


The link was referring to GWB's records while Governor of Texas.
  #8   Report Post  
Old December 21st 03, 03:40 AM
NOYB
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America


"thunder" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:20:02 +0000, NOYB wrote:


"thunder" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:29:29 +0000, NOYB wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


which makes him a
suspicious character indeed.

What makes Dean a suspicious character is the fact that he sealed all
of his records from when he was governor.

Yup, it seems a rather stupid thing to do when running for President.
But in fairness, how about GWB's records.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com...es/000897.html


I'm not interested in what Dean did while in college...'cause it's not
relevant. However, the decisions that he made while an elected
representative (governor of Vermont) *are* very relevant.


The link was referring to GWB's records while Governor of Texas.


The link made a one-sentence reference to GWB's record while governor...but
there was no further mention of it. That was the first time I even heard
mention of him having his records sealed from the time he was governor. Any
further specifics on the allegation?




  #9   Report Post  
Old December 21st 03, 04:35 AM
Harry Krause
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America

NOYB wrote:

"thunder" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:20:02 +0000, NOYB wrote:


"thunder" wrote in message
news On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:29:29 +0000, NOYB wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


which makes him a
suspicious character indeed.

What makes Dean a suspicious character is the fact that he sealed all
of his records from when he was governor.

Yup, it seems a rather stupid thing to do when running for President.
But in fairness, how about GWB's records.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com...es/000897.html

I'm not interested in what Dean did while in college...'cause it's not
relevant. However, the decisions that he made while an elected
representative (governor of Vermont) *are* very relevant.


The link was referring to GWB's records while Governor of Texas.


The link made a one-sentence reference to GWB's record while governor...but
there was no further mention of it. That was the first time I even heard
mention of him having his records sealed from the time he was governor. Any
further specifics on the allegation?




It's not an allegation.

--
Email sent to is never read.
  #10   Report Post  
Old December 21st 03, 05:10 AM
thunder
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Howard Dean and America

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 03:40:33 +0000, NOYB wrote:


The link made a one-sentence reference to GWB's record while
governor...but there was no further mention of it. That was the first
time I even heard mention of him having his records sealed from the time
he was governor. Any further specifics on the allegation?


From the above link:

" Dean's right, in a sense, about Bush. The former Texas governor had his
gubernatorial records sent to his father's presidential library at Texas
A&M, where they are kept from public scrutiny (requests have to go through
the state's attorney general's office, who just happens to be a close Bush
ally)."

Upon further reading, GWB's records were moved back into state custody in
July 2002, after "a Texas attorney general's opinion had established that
they were subject to the state's open-records law." I agree with you,
Dean should unseal his records. It is a stupid thing for a candidate to
do and GWB should also have been held to task for it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true





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