On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:27:18 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

JohnH wrote:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:59:07 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

snip
And it is a good thing, too, since the so-called Patriot Act is the most
unAmerican piece of crap perpetrated by the right-wing loonies since Joe
McCarthy.

Harry, just what rights have you lost under the Patriot Act. I've asked you this
before, but you apparently missed the question.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

No man is an island, John.
There; it is Donne.

Got it?

When civil liberties are attacked by the US government, we're all under
attack.

The Bush Administration is hell-bent on eroding civil liberties. Perhaps
the courts are finally waking up to the erosions being perpetrated by
the fascists running the Bush Administration.

Apparently I wasn't clear. What civil liberties have you lost under the Patriot
Act? This is the act that 98 Senators voted for, yes?


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

JohnH wrote:


Harry, just what rights have you lost under the Patriot Act. I've asked you this
before, but you apparently missed the question.

I'm not Harry (not by a long way) but I believe I can answer this.

** from http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...lofrights.html **

Bill of Rights

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,
against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no
warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and
particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things
to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless
on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the
land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or
public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put
in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due
process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just
compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and
public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall

have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law,
and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be
confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining
witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his
defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars,
the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall
be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the
rules of the common law.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to
deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by
it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Harry doesn't like to answer direct questions...'cause honesty makes him
uncomfortable.

What rights have *you* lost Harry?



"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:27:18 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

JohnH wrote:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:59:07 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

snip
And it is a good thing, too, since the so-called Patriot Act is the
most
unAmerican piece of crap perpetrated by the right-wing loonies since
Joe
McCarthy.

Harry, just what rights have you lost under the Patriot Act. I've asked
you this
before, but you apparently missed the question.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

No man is an island, John.
There; it is Donne.

Got it?

When civil liberties are attacked by the US government, we're all under
attack.

The Bush Administration is hell-bent on eroding civil liberties. Perhaps
the courts are finally waking up to the erosions being perpetrated by
the fascists running the Bush Administration.

Apparently I wasn't clear. What civil liberties have you lost under the
Patriot
Act? This is the act that 98 Senators voted for, yes?


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

Apparently I wasn't clear. What civil liberties have you lost under the
Patriot
Act? This is the act that 98 Senators voted for, yes?


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD


You do a disservice to the right wing when you ask this question, as does NOYB
when he repeats it. It's a stupid question.
I guess the problem is that your talk radio
gurus haven't really addressed this, so as an early Solstice Holiday Gift I
will fill in for them.

The Patriot Act reduces inalienable individual rights guaranteed by the
Constitution of the United States to provisional rights subject to the whim of
the Chief Executive.

Read that paragraph again, slowly, if it didn't register the first time
through.

Merely by uttering the word, "Terrorist" or "Enemy Combatant", under the
Patriot Act, the Executive branch can strip any citizen of the United States of
any and all civil rights. Each citizen of the US is entitled to a full spectrum
of civil rights until *convicted* (not merely accused of) a serious crime.

Under the Patriot Act, there is no appeals process if the Executive Branch
decides to label you a "terrorist" or an "enemy combatant." You are simply
locked up and the key is thrown away.

Now, if you cannot see how having your individual, inalienable rights
guaranteed by the constitution is a better situation than having whatever
politician currently elected POTUS making (possibly politically motivated)
decisions about who is going to be protected under the Bill of Rights and who
is not, then you will surely keep asking your same silly question until hell
freezes over.

Just because the hate mongers on right wing radio pose the rhetorical question,
"What do these liberal, left wing, communist, traitor, Democrat *******s think
they have given up as a result of the Patriot Act"..doesn't mean the question
has any legs at all in the real world.

I wonder how he is going to get rid of his lobster boat, maybe it will be
sunk by a hurricane.


"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 01:34:03 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:

Harry doesn't like to answer direct questions...'cause honesty makes him
uncomfortable.

What rights have *you* lost Harry?

He lost the right to drive his lobster boat.

Oh wait.......... nevermind.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message

Merely by uttering the word, "Terrorist" or "Enemy Combatant", under the
Patriot Act, the Executive branch can strip any citizen of the United
States of
any and all civil rights. .....


Under the Patriot Act, there is no appeals process if the Executive Branch
decides to label you a "terrorist" or an "enemy combatant." You are simply
locked up and the key is thrown away.


Blatantly overstated and wrong on both counts, Chuck, and the recent
decision by the 2nd Circuit Appellate would seem to support me; would seem
to indicate that our system of checks and balances does, in fact, work;
that we can, in times of national need, tighten down the screws a bit in
particular places as long as we're careful to ensure that the tightened
screw does not pinch where it does not need to.

JG

(Gould 0738) wrote in message ...
Apparently I wasn't clear. What civil liberties have you lost under the
Patriot
Act? This is the act that 98 Senators voted for, yes?


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD


You do a disservice to the right wing when you ask this question, as does NOYB
when he repeats it. It's a stupid question.
I guess the problem is that your talk radio
gurus haven't really addressed this, so as an early Solstice Holiday Gift I
will fill in for them.

The Patriot Act reduces inalienable individual rights guaranteed by the
Constitution of the United States to provisional rights subject to the whim of
the Chief Executive.

Read that paragraph again, slowly, if it didn't register the first time
through.

Merely by uttering the word, "Terrorist" or "Enemy Combatant", under the
Patriot Act, the Executive branch can strip any citizen of the United States of
any and all civil rights. Each citizen of the US is entitled to a full spectrum
of civil rights until *convicted* (not merely accused of) a serious crime.

Under the Patriot Act, there is no appeals process if the Executive Branch
decides to label you a "terrorist" or an "enemy combatant." You are simply
locked up and the key is thrown away.

Now, if you cannot see how having your individual, inalienable rights
guaranteed by the constitution is a better situation than having whatever
politician currently elected POTUS making (possibly politically motivated)
decisions about who is going to be protected under the Bill of Rights and who
is not, then you will surely keep asking your same silly question until hell
freezes over.

Just because the hate mongers on right wing radio pose the rhetorical question,
"What do these liberal, left wing, communist, traitor, Democrat *******s think
they have given up as a result of the Patriot Act"..doesn't mean the question
has any legs at all in the real world.



We should just be satisfied with whatever rights Our President Bush
says we have. After all he knows best doesn't he?

And why do we need rights anyway? If you don't break the law, you
don't need protections of rights anyway.

If we all just behaved we could do away with that pesky constitution.

Please....these amendments are a bunch of crap and you know it. Left-wing
drivel. Where did you find them? New York Times?

"DSK" wrote in message
...
JohnH wrote:


Harry, just what rights have you lost under the Patriot Act. I've asked
you this
before, but you apparently missed the question.

I'm not Harry (not by a long way) but I believe I can answer this.

** from
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...lofrights.html **

Bill of Rights

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects,
against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no
warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
affirmation, and
particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or
things
to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless
on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in
the
land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of
war or
public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be
twice put
in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case
to be a
witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property,
without due
process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use,
without just
compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and
public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the
crime shall

have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained
by law,
and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be
confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for
obtaining
witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his
defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
dollars,
the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a
jury, shall
be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according
to the
rules of the common law.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to
deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by
it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the
people.

Blatantly overstated and wrong on both counts, Chuck,

Beyond a declaration by the Justice Department, (reporting to the POTUS),
nothing more is required to lock up an individual indefinitely under the
Patriot Act.

and the recent
decision by the 2nd Circuit Appellate would seem to support me;

Who brought the suit in the 2nd Court?
Surely not the accused- he has had no access to an attorney. When the first
citizen is locked up under the Patriot Act, it's a high profile situation.
Suppose there were 200, 2000, or 20,000? Would somebody step forward to bring
judicial attention to all of the cases of unconstitutional confinement?

that we can, in times of national need, tighten down the screws a bit in
particular places as long as we're careful to ensure that the tightened
screw does not pinch where it does not need to.

the "screwing" cannot effect the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.

What is the right wing always says, "If you don't like it, move to........"?
Gosh, there must be 1000 countries in the world where one doesn't have to put
up with that ridiculous Bill of Rights.

On 19 Dec 2003 05:17:48 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Apparently I wasn't clear. What civil liberties have you lost under the
Patriot
Act? This is the act that 98 Senators voted for, yes?


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD


You do a disservice to the right wing when you ask this question, as does NOYB
when he repeats it. It's a stupid question.
I guess the problem is that your talk radio
gurus haven't really addressed this, so as an early Solstice Holiday Gift I
will fill in for them.

The Patriot Act reduces inalienable individual rights guaranteed by the
Constitution of the United States to provisional rights subject to the whim of
the Chief Executive.

Read that paragraph again, slowly, if it didn't register the first time
through.

Merely by uttering the word, "Terrorist" or "Enemy Combatant", under the
Patriot Act, the Executive branch can strip any citizen of the United States of
any and all civil rights. Each citizen of the US is entitled to a full spectrum
of civil rights until *convicted* (not merely accused of) a serious crime.

Under the Patriot Act, there is no appeals process if the Executive Branch
decides to label you a "terrorist" or an "enemy combatant." You are simply
locked up and the key is thrown away.

Now, if you cannot see how having your individual, inalienable rights
guaranteed by the constitution is a better situation than having whatever
politician currently elected POTUS making (possibly politically motivated)
decisions about who is going to be protected under the Bill of Rights and who
is not, then you will surely keep asking your same silly question until hell
freezes over.

Just because the hate mongers on right wing radio pose the rhetorical question,
"What do these liberal, left wing, communist, traitor, Democrat *******s think
they have given up as a result of the Patriot Act"..doesn't mean the question
has any legs at all in the real world.

No, Chuck. You do a disservice to yourself and others who continue to harangue
and preach things which are not true. I assume, because of your statements, that
you are knowledgeable of the Patriot Act. Well, could you please give us the
title, sub-title, and section number of that portion of the bill which provides
for: "Merely by uttering the word, "Terrorist" or "Enemy Combatant", under the
Patriot Act, the Executive branch can strip any citizen of the United States of
any and all civil rights. Each citizen of the US is entitled to a full spectrum
of civil rights until *convicted* (not merely accused of) a serious crime."

I think you will find no such statement in the entire act. If you like, I will
post the entire act to aid your search. But that shouldn't be necessary. I think
you are simply supporting Harry's claims, which he did not back up either.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD