Karl Denninger wrote:
In article ,
K Smith wrote:

http://www.tomorrowsbestseller.com/w...State/book.asp


Most things seem to have been covered except the injector lines.

On small yacht pleasure boat type diesels in the panic that accompanies
a runaway, a shifter to loosen the injector pipes flange nut(s) (just a
tad is all) will stop it.

Beware some diesel will escape so fire is always a risk, however it's
the only one left off that should be known. ...........


K


How do you intend to get to the injector line nuts on the Detroits that I
have in that situation? They seem to be a bit, uh, difficult to get at.

--

OK Karl yes as you point out; only on those diesels where the injector
pipes have outside accessible flange nuts or they don't use unit injectors.

It was merely a suggestion of a stopping method that hadn't been
mentioned yet.



K


Here's some of Harry's lies for you, just to bring back old memories:-)



I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer
for my


staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.


I need more staff because 2004 is a major election year and business
booked to date indicates we'll be drowning in work. We need to hire a
production coordinator, too. It has very little to do with the state of
the economy, other than using it as reason to defeat Republicrap
candidates.


I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer
for my

staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.




We have first-class benefits, including a top-of-the-line health
insurance plan, a non-contributory defined-benefit pension plan, a 401k,
and a life insurance policy equal to annual salary. We contribute a
share of profits to the 401k on behalf of the employee. Our employees
pay $4.50 for generic prescriptions and $8.00 for non-generics, but
that's going up next year to $10 and $15. New employees get two weeks
vacation the first year, and that goes to three weeks the third year. In
addition, we have 12 paid holidays and we shut down from noon on
Christmas eve to the day after New Year's Day. We also provide 20 days
of paid sick leave a year. And we have an outside company administering
pre-tax flexible bennies for our employees.
Our fringe benefit package follows the trade union model, except, of
course, for the profit contributions to 401k's. Trade unions are
not-for-profit enterprises.
How do these compare to the bennies at your shop?

Paid? Every year? I call "bull****". With 3 weeks vacation, 12 paid
holidays, and 20 paid sick days that's 47 *paid* days off every year.
Are
they hourly employees? For a "small business", that's the road to
bankruptcy.

Boy...and you had me going there for a minute.

Not quite so simple, though you are trying hard to make it so. Our
business is up because we're on the cusp of an election year. Our
business always goes up in a major election year.
You could say we're going to be doing very well in 2004 because Bush is
such a total failure.


The 20 paid sick days aren't part of the "paid" days off unless those
days are used. None of our people abuses sick leave. In fact, no one as
yet has even come close to using 20 sick days in one year. They're there
in case they're needed.


Oh, I forgot. We also provide everyone with LTD.

The company provides an insurance plan that pays 50% of an employe's
salary for Long Term Disability. Employes have the option of purchasing
an additional 16.66%, bringing their total to 66.66%. The basic benefit
maximum is $4,000 per month. With the buy up, the limit is increased to
$10,000 per month.



Here's just some of his prior lies (in his own words pasted);

I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything was
sold...every
cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started. For near
full-retail, too.


He had just under $1,000,000 on floor plan with a
syndicate of banks led by National Shawmut of Boston. He had been a
solid customer of that back for more than 20 years and they gave him
great rates.



As far as your other complaints, well, almost every president in
my memory,
and I *remember* Truman, Eisenhower (who cheated on his wife),
Kennedy,
Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush, lied and
participated in
deceit to one degree or another, and on issues far more important
than who
was giving them blow jobs.

Good lord. I met *every* president in the damned group except
Bush, and I
worked once for his father.



My father used to pray that the north shore of LI Sound would be
hit by
a mild hurricane. No
one injured, no on-shore property damaged, but lots of boats sunk.
Preferably early in July.


We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold
clear, a
broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary
assignments
they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we paid
for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full
years. So,
we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any,
either.
The proceeds were prudently invested.

The PWC was won as
a prize in a raffle.



Never mind that. Why does he have a Bilgeliner in front of his
office?
Is it a display of "Boating Don'ts?"
Yeah, when we were in the boat biz, my father always had one or two







"around the back" that he was forced to take in trade. These were
sold
as "as is, where is." He made sure the engine would start and run.
Beyond that, it was up to the prospective buyer to decide if he
wanted
it. They moved off the lot pretty quickly, partially because my dad's
main store was on a highly trafficked commercial route with lots of
manufacturing and machining and aerospace plants near by. In
those days,
workers at these places could fix anything.


Actually, Dipper, I don't think my father ever saw a Bayliner.
But he still
called bumpers bumpers.
--



Bayliner wined and dined my father a half dozen times to
entice him
into becoming its dealer. His operation was the largest small boat
dealership in its area of New England, and for 30 years, he was the
*exclusive* Evinrude dealer in a densely populated coastal county. He
also handled Mercuries. He never liked Bayliners, and referred to
them
as "jerry-built."


From 1947 until he died, he sold more than 500 outboard motors a
year from his stores, accounting for a reasonably high percentage
of *all*
outboards sold in his home state for those years.


This is a killer. My father was in the boat business dating back to
right after
the Big War. When he died and I was looking through his
warehouse, I found
wrapped in a nuclear fall-out bag (no kidding), a brand-new 1949
Evinrude 8015
50 hp outboard. The motor was a gift to my father from Evinrude for
winning some
outboard stock utility or hydroplane race.

I gave the motor to a friend of my dad's, who worked at the shop
as head
mechanic. I don't believe he ever used it and I'm sure it is still
brand-new. I
have no idea who might own it now.



He also built
boats, and I worked on a few, both wood, glass covered wood and
all fiberglass. After he died, however, we sold the biz and I've
just been an occasional boat owner.


Besides, I worked off and on in the
boat business and inherited it when he died. So, as I said, I'm
knee-deep in boat heritage.


Oh,
and I had some friends who died in the service, too, but it
wasn't for
what they believed in. They were drafted, shipped to Vietnam and came
back in body bags.


During the war, he turned out experimental brass shell casings
for the
Army and hopped up outboards for the Navy, which wanted to use
them on
smaller
landing craft. I had photos at one time of my father with Ole
Evinrude
himself.
My mother knew one of Evinrude's wives...she was a minor movie
star or
singer...I forgot which. Maybe both.



Have you ever sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii? I have.
Have you ever rounded Cape Horn? I have, twice.
Have you ever transited the Panama Canal? I have.
Have you owned more than 20 boats in your lifetime? I have.
Have you ever sailed large boats competitively? I have.
Have you ever been hundreds of miles from land in a powerboat
under your
command? I have.


My father and his chief mechanic once crossed the Atlantic in
winter in
a 22'
boat powered by twin outboards. Yes, it is possible, even the
fuel. Got a
"fireboat" welcome in NYC.




Here are some:

Hatteras 43' sportfish
Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop
Morgan 33
O'Day 30
Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22
Century Coronado
Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as ever caught a breeze.
Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering
Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes
Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers
with various
Evinrudes
Lighting class sailboat
Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat.
Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit)
Alcort Sunfish
Ancarrow Marine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders.
Guaranteed 60
mph. In the late 1950's.
Skimmar brand skiff
Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider)
Dyer Dhow
Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass
Penn Yan runabouts. Wood.
Old Town wood and canvas canoe
Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe



Sometime in the early 1960s, I was driving back from Ft. Leonard
Wood to
Kansas City in a nice old MGA I owned at the time. About halfway
home it
started raining heavily, I turned on the wipers, and EVERY SINGLE
electrical accessory and light in the car flashed on, there was a
large
popping sound and it all blew out at once. And the car caught fire. I
pulled over to the side of the road, watched the fire, removed my
license plate and hitched on home. For all I know, that old MGA
is still
there.

Sure was a pretty little car.


Puh-lease, Karen. You've not seen nor have I ever posted one
example of
my professional writings on building structure and the effects on
it of
hurricane-force winds and seismic activity. I haven't done any of
these
in at least 10 year, but at the time I was field researching,
photographing and writing these reports, they were quite accurate,
topical and well-received by their intended audiences.


A small fleet of Polar skiffs were purchased by an inshore bait,
tackle

and boat rental business on the ICW in NE Florida. These boats
were not
used on open waters. Within 90 days, cracks developed in the
liners that
also served as the deck over the flotation in the bottom of the
hulls. A
guide I know, one whose boats and engines are supplied to him by
manufacturers, also had a Polar skiff go bad on him for the same
reasons
-liner and then hull fractures.







Harry has claimed to have a 20 yrs his junior beautiful wife, he
even put a fake pic of a beautiful woman on a website once claiming it
was his "young bride", he may have a wife, although I doubt it, we don't
like nor tolerate misogynists for long.

Needless to say he's made up many "dramatic" over the top
stories over the years about this lie to feed his ego & pretend he's the
centre of attention, but as with his boat claims & other crap, there's
never once been even a shred of independently verifiable material.

After he stalked Madcow in real life, which was most
frightening, I do suspect he's very very dangerous & that this "bride"
story is his delusional appropriation of his, probably court ordered,
treating psychotherapist as "wife" (it seems he was under lock & key for
what?? over a year??? a sexual deviant maybe??), have a read of just a
small part of his BS & make up your own mind, it's all about free choice:-)


1. She *is* my bride. There are no rules that determine the end of
"bride-hood." If I want to refer to her as my bride, I may.

2. As a professional writer, I know the rules of language and am
entitled to
break them in exercise of my license.

3. I doubt many married women would object to their husbands lovingly
referring to them as brides. The connotations are pleasant.

4. She's 20 years younger than I am.



Naw. What happened was that I handled a couple of "political"
consulting
jobs funded out of the DC area to help a few candidates and defeat a
couple of ballot issues. Through no fault of mine, we won each of the
races, so some of the deep pockets types based in the DC area think I
actually *know something* about the process. I was offered a contract
that requires my presence in DC quite frequently. My bride also was
offered a job up here that represented a significant professional
career
move. So, we're "up here" much of the time and "down there" the rest of
it, except when we're "somewhere else." I've been back to Jax (well,
really south of Jax) five times since coming "up here" late last summer
and my bride just returned from a business trip there.

I swear this is true.


Here's a funny. My bride had to fly out to San Diego Wednesday and
hitched a ride on her company's corporate jet. They landed in Salina,
Kansas, which is due north of Wichita and Skippy's suburb of Derby.

So when she gets to San Diego, I get a call asking, "What the hell did
you do in Kansas...we didn't fly over one significant patch of
water...?"

Harry, you make over 500 posts a week to this group and you don't own
a boat?
And why are you so crabby?
Maybe these two factors are related?



One has to own something to use it? Hmmm. My bride drives off in
her car
every day, but she doesn't own it.

I'm not crabby. You asked for advice I gave you some. I questioned your
wanting to take a very small boat out into high seas and suddenly you
turned sour. It's your pot; you are the one stewing in it.

No, it is the boat of a friend. It is a 24' ProLine center console
with,
if I recall, a 225 hp Merc on it. It was a dark and stormy day in
January (1997) when we went out, but the sky cleared once we got out to
the Gulf Stream.


Bride and I caught and released:

1 white marlin
12-15 yellowtail snappers, maybe two pounds each. Pretty, pretty fish.
Assorted red snappers
1 amberjack
2 jack crevalle jacks
1 snook
Nondescript sharks

Did you spend a year as a line psychotherapist at a 650-bed state
hospital for forensic patients?
Did you spend a year as senior psychotherapist at a county facility for
substance abusers?
Did you spend two years as chief of therapy at a private, 200-bed
facility for the mentally and emotionally ill, at which approximately
half the patients were trying to beat drugs or alcohol?
Are you currently chief of therapy for a for a multi-practitioner
practice of some 825 patients, about a third of which are seeking help
for substance abuse problems?


Licensed psychotherapist
Screening as to character and background for each degree earned
On-going screening by faculty while in educational system
Interviews and screenings for required years of internships, plus,
at the same
time, supervision by a licensed professional.
Close professional and personal supervision by a licensed therapist
for two years
of employment before being allowed to apply for licensure
Licensure background check, submission of recommendations by licensed
practitioners
Four hour written examination on state laws
Five hour written examination on diagnosis, procedure and practice

My wife went through this before becoming licensed. Her final
internship was as a
psychotherapist at a 600-bed high security state psychiatric
hospital where, on a
daily basis, she was exposed to more danger than your average soldier.

My wife worked for a year as psychotherapist in a Florida 600-bed state
mental institution for forensic patients. She saw and treated numerous
sexual deviants who do a bit more than expose themselves. Such
"treatment"
is part of being in the mental health professions.


You see, I'm a nautical psychotherapist, and for only $125 an hour,
until their health insurance runs out, I help Bayliner owners
overcome their
feelings of boatable inadequacy.


She is a licensed, practicing
psychotherapist and often tells me I am the sanest person she sees each
day. Which can be taken any way one likes.


1. I'm married to a psychotherapist. Live-in therapy, dontcha know?
And much of
Freud is passe.

My ex-wife surpassed the anti-Christ at least a decade ago.

They're not actually "free" moments. I go to boat dealers to round-up
Bayliner owners who are trying to find one who will take their own
version of flotsam and jetsam in on trade.


1. The address listed is not a home address. It is an office.

2. I have three phone numbers. The phone number listed is not one of
mine. It has never been one of mine. The phone number *did* belong
to an
after-hours message recording hotline my wife maintained for her most
mentally disturbed patients. Some of these troubled souls were
court-ordered referrals. *Every* call to that phone number--every
call--was recorded AND because of the nature of the line, my wife had
the ability to alert the telephone company to trace the phone number of
every incoming call to that line, *even* if the person making the call
tried to block his number.

Why, you might ask? Because when you are dealing with suicidal people,
they'll liable to tell their therapist over the phone that they are
planning to take their life. If the therapist believes the threat is
real, she or he will want to dispatch emergency srvices and perhaps the
police.

In the years my wife has provided this pro bono service, she has never
received a threatening or abusive call from a mentally ill patient or
court-ordered referral. However, after the ranking Flaming Ass of this
newsgroup posted the hotline number in this newsgroup, she received a
number of abusive, foul-mouthed AND life-threatening calls. These were
mostly directed at me but, of course, I never received them BECAUSE
(duh!) the phone is not mine and I've never answered it.
Naturally, my wife alerted the authorities, with whom she works closely
because of her court-referred patients. The authorities are
investigating the callers and have involved both the FBI *and*
authorities in other states, including Florida, Georgia, California and
Texas. Working with the telephone company, the authorities have been
able to trace the origin of virtually every abusive call. And, of
course, they have the tape recordings of the abusive messages. Several
suspects have been identified. I really don't know what the outcome of
all this will be. We haven't had an update in several weeks, nor are
either of us here that interested in the sleazeballs that would make
such calls.


The phone number, of course, is "wired," so when the obnoxious
calls came in
from the idiot rec.boaters, the numbers were easy enough to trace.
The local
police handled a complaint, the local telco was involved and when
it was
discovered the point of origin was out of state, the FBI got
involved. At
least one of the idiots was caught and prosecuted. As far as I can
tell, he
has not posted here again

Rick wrote:

Karl Denninger wrote:

Halon won't shut a diesel down at all. It will simply burn the Halon and
contaminate the oil while producing the phosgene. The Halon (and its later
cousins) manufacturers are well-aware of this which is why they require
an electrical shutdown system to be installed for Halon bottles on boats
with Diesel engines.

Misleading. Halon will not burn, the engine will not burn halon.

Engine rooms fitted with CO2 flooding systems also require that all
ventilation be secured and the engines stopped before releasing the gas.
These are fire extinguishing systems, not emergency diesel engine
shutdown systems.

The reason for an engine shutdown system in engine rooms fitted with a
fixed halon extinguishing system is due to the fact that the quantity of
halon available is calculated to provide a 5 percent concentration of
halon when discharged. The system should include a timer that allows for
the engine to stop before the gas is released or prevent its release
while the engine is still running. Because the halon gas mixes with the
atmosphere rather than displacing it as CO2 does there is still enough
O2 remaining in the atmosphere of the flooded space to support life and
allow a diesel to run.

This 5 percent concentration is sufficient to prevent the chemical
reaction we call fire without killing people in the space. The engine
will still run long enough on a 5 percent concentration to completely
remove all halon and therefore prevent the system from extinguishing a
fire. The required shutdown system is to insure that the space remains
at the required concentration.

If you have enough halon, such as in the form of a large portable
extinguisher like a CO2 unit, it will shut down the engine just as CO2
will. If you have an equal size supply of halon as CO2 and apply it
directly to the engine air intake just as you would CO2 it will stop the
engine with equal certainty as CO2.

Rick



I read somewhere that a diesel fire truck engine "ran away" because of
its "inhalation" of fumes and smoke from a fire of some sort that was
spewing an incredible amount of carbon. Is this a possibility or was the
article pulling our legs?

--
Email sent to is never read.

Harry Krause wrote:

I read somewhere that a diesel fire truck engine "ran away" because of
its "inhalation" of fumes and smoke from a fire of some sort that was
spewing an incredible amount of carbon. Is this a possibility or was the
article pulling our legs?

I am a bit skeptical about that. There may have been some high
concentration of flammable vapor around but it is really a stretch to
think it would be in a concentration that the engine could burn and
produce power but not be so high as to prevent it running through lack
of oxygen or lean enough that it wouldn't have exploded from other
ignition sources in the area.

It is not impossible but sure seems so highly improbable. There are
always stories floating around about that sort of thing but I have yet
to see any proof of it happening.

I certainly don't believe it could happen due to high concentrations of
carbon in the form of dust. The air filters would have clogged solid and
the firefighters not wearing SCBA's would have choked to death on that
much soot or it would have exploded ,as in dust explosion, before it
made it to the diesel.

But then again, sometimes truth is really strange stuff.

Rick

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:34:01 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:

Cutting off the air supply is a good choice. It was not one we were
presented with in the original post. Cutting off the fuel is often hard to
do quickly.

Firing a co2 extinguisher is also ok. Lets talk about the physics involved.
Even presuming your co2 stays cold enough to have an effect which I will
allow you. The moving parts in the engine are the ones that have to most
difficulty transfering heat energy. This is because the have small
lubricated contact surfaces to the non-moving parts. The ones that your
cold slug of co2 are going to encounter are the valves and the pistons.
Valves exchange heat through the valve guides, the valve springs, and the
oil. Normally excessive heat is being transfered from the valves to these
other items. But in this case we will allow that the co2 has cooled the
valve below normal operating temp. The cooled valve will contract. This
will increase the clearance in the valve guide and shorten the valve stem.
Neither of these is going to result in damage. Next stop is the combustion
chamber and the top of the piston. Again the moving part, in this case the
piston, is going to have the most problems with heat transfer. Pistons are
only able to transfer heat through the rings, the wrist pin, and the oil.
Again allowing that your co2 has cooled the piston lower than normal
operating temp. The piston will contract increasing the clearance between
the piston and the cylinder wall. This is not going to cause any damage
either. The head and block are simply going to contain far far too much
heat energy for your co2 to have a noticable effect. And the head and block
also have smaller contraction and expansion rates for the same temp change
as the valves and pistons. Even bringing other parts into the mix you are
always going to have a situation where you have cooled the moving part and
increased the clearances. And you simply are not going to be able to cool
anything down enough to result in a loss of material strength. This is why
you can't damage an engine with co2.


Excellent analysis Lawrence. Let's also remember that the CO2 will
likely encounter a heated intake charge coming from a turbo/blower,
further reducing the "shock."

Back to the nitrous comparison - hence the saying, "turbos and
nitrous love each other." The cooling effect of nitrous on the
intake charge is more pronounced on a forced induction engine...

Harry Krause wrote:

I read somewhere that a diesel fire truck engine "ran away" because of
its "inhalation" of fumes and smoke from a fire of some sort that was
spewing an incredible amount of carbon. Is this a possibility or was the
article pulling our legs?


I remember reading about Niklaus Diesel's original engine design, one
prototype being intended to run on finely ground coal dust. I read about
it a long time ago and could have mis-remembered it but powder explosions
are well known, and just about any carbon containing powder is potentially
extremely explosive if fine enough to stay airborne.

OK Google is good for this sort of stuff. Here is what I found

Patent No. 67,207 dated February 28, 1892, issued to Dr Diesel
Specifies an engine with compression ignition using coal dust as fuel.

I guess that would be a German patent. His ten foot high prototype
exploded due to problems metering the coal dust and apparently nearly
killed him.

It does seem that it is plausible that a diesel could run on a high enough
concentration of soot and it also seems that it would be extremely
dangerous and might trigger an explosion comparable to igniting gas or
petrol fumes in your bilge.




--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Uffa Fox designed, All varnished hot moulded
wooden racing dinghy circa. 1961

They always told me when I worked for a Mack truck dealership to take a large ball peen hammer to the side of the injector pump to
stop a runaway diesel engine.

Of course you will have to replace the pump when you do this to the tune of 800-1000 dollars US.
Fredo

Ian Malcolm wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

I read somewhere that a diesel fire truck engine "ran away" because of
its "inhalation" of fumes and smoke from a fire of some sort that was
spewing an incredible amount of carbon. Is this a possibility or was the
article pulling our legs?


I remember reading about Niklaus Diesel's original engine design, one
prototype being intended to run on finely ground coal dust. I read about
it a long time ago and could have mis-remembered it but powder explosions
are well known, and just about any carbon containing powder is potentially
extremely explosive if fine enough to stay airborne.

OK Google is good for this sort of stuff. Here is what I found

Patent No. 67,207 dated February 28, 1892, issued to Dr Diesel
Specifies an engine with compression ignition using coal dust as fuel.

I guess that would be a German patent. His ten foot high prototype
exploded due to problems metering the coal dust and apparently nearly
killed him.

It does seem that it is plausible that a diesel could run on a high enough
concentration of soot and it also seems that it would be extremely
dangerous and might trigger an explosion comparable to igniting gas or
petrol fumes in your bilge.




Fascinating! Now...an engine that runs on used kitty litter...that's
what the world needs.

--
Email sent to is never read.

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 05:16:56 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Fascinating! Now...an engine that runs on used kitty litter...that's
what the world needs.

If used kitty litter burns, there are engines that will run on it.
External combustion engines though, like steam, stirling, or the wally
minto wonder wheel. Just don't keep it upwind.

Steve

There are specific cautions on doing this test at speeds above idle in the
Detroit shop manual that I have, and the reason is the blower oil seals.
The engine will draw vacuum against the shaft seals in the blower and they
are not designed to seal against that.

2-stroke diesels do not produce a vacuum.

NetSock wrote:
2-stroke diesels do not produce a vacuum.

The Roots type blower used to provide scavenging air to many 2-stroke
diesels will produce a very high vacuum.

I can attest to the fact that a runaway 2-stroke will pull enough vacuum
to crush and collapse many feet of sheet metal intake trunking.

Rick