My remark:

Bush's supporters
will all agree that debating Kerry is "beneath" Bush, anyway, and applaud
the
refusal.

Was followed by:

Good idea, Chuck. I think Bush *would* be lowering himself to get on a stage
with Kerry.

Thanks for supporting my opinion, John. :-)

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
My remark:

Bush's supporters
will all agree that debating Kerry is "beneath" Bush, anyway, and applaud
the
refusal.

Was followed by:

Good idea, Chuck. I think Bush *would* be lowering himself to get on a
stage
with Kerry.

Thanks for supporting my opinion, John. :-)

Seems you came back from vacation with your shorts in a knot and a bruised
ego Chuck. Chill.

Do you think his statements accusing soldiers of widespread atrocities helped
the attitudes of the people at home?


Do you think that isolating a portion of a person's testimony, out of context,
and feigning blindness or indifference toward the balance helps you appreciate
the truth?

Gould 0738 wrote:

Do you think his statements accusing soldiers of widespread atrocities helped
the attitudes of the people at home?


Do you think that isolating a portion of a person's testimony, out of context,
and feigning blindness or indifference toward the balance helps you appreciate
the truth?


Speaking of the attitudes of people at home, it is important for
political and military leaders to speak the absolute truth to the people
on all matters, but especially on those of war, when their sons and
daughters might be sent to foreign lands to fight and die.

Too bad the Bush Administration has nothing in it but liars.

--
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
And don't forget to pay your taxes so the rich don't have to!

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Do you think his statements accusing soldiers of widespread atrocities
helped
the attitudes of the people at home?


Do you think that isolating a portion of a person's testimony, out of
context,
and feigning blindness or indifference toward the balance helps you
appreciate
the truth?

How so? Here is the testimony:
----------------

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several
months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably
discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes
committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on
a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command.
It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the
emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their
experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of
what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut
off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned
up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians,
razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs
for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of
South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and
very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this
country.

http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3875422

Gould,

Kerry was forced into going to Viet Nam like most of the people over there.
He did everything he could think of to get out of Viet Nam, like most of
those drafted. Unlike most draftee's, he succeeded in getting out in 4
months. More power to him, I would have done the same thing.

But don't ask for a deferment to go to Paris, file for 4 purple hearts after
receiving minor cuts and then claim to be a war hero. He was an average GI,
doing the best he could in a terrible war, when he came home, he was against
the war, stated their was wide spread atrocities and he was guilty of
committing them the atrocities. That is his right as an American citizen,
but considering these facts, he should run on his record of the past 20 yrs.
and not make his 4 month military record a center piece of his campaign.

Kerry bought this upon himself, when he tried to make himself out as a war
hero, which is a gross distortion of the facts.




"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Do you think his statements accusing soldiers of widespread atrocities
helped
the attitudes of the people at home?


Do you think that isolating a portion of a person's testimony, out of
context,
and feigning blindness or indifference toward the balance helps you
appreciate
the truth?

Kerry was forced into going to Viet Nam like most of the people over there.
He did everything he could think of to get out of Viet Nam, like most of
those drafted.

Kerry volunteered.


Unlike most draftee's, he succeeded in getting out in 4
months.

He wasn't a draftee.
He served 16 months in Viet Nam. One 12-month tour and 4 months of a second
tour. How many people volunteered for a second tour or served any portion of
one?

Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believe them.



But don't ask for a deferment to go to Paris, file for 4 purple hearts after
receiving minor cuts and then claim to be a war hero.

Wasn't it three purple hearts? And a Bronze Star. And a Silver Star.

BTW, any soldier qualifies for the purple heart if he or she suffers any combat
related injury, (has to be caused directly by enemy action), if that combat
related injury requires medical attention. There doesn't even need to be a loss
of blood. Broken bones and contusions count. If you get nicked in the arm and
need two or three stitches to sew it up, that meets the
qualification for purple heart.

The only "heroism" attached to Kerry's record was fishing Rassman out of the
river.

Kerry bought this upon himself, when he tried to make himself out as a war
hero, which is a gross distortion of the facts.

Absolutely a critical campaign mistake.
It lets the Repubs shift the focus to arguing about things that happened 35
years ago rather than taking a hard look at what's going on today. *Exactly*
the break a failing administration needed.

Gould,
Kerry enlisted in the Navy to get out of being drafted into the army. He
requested a 2S deferment, was denied and chose the Navy as a better
alternative to the army.

I do appreciate the correction concerning this first term of duty, I was not
aware of that. The question I have is if he spent 12 months in VN, he knew
we were burning villages, raping the population, killing innocent people,
and committing extreme atrocities and war crimes, why did he volunteer for a
term of duty?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Kerry was forced into going to Viet Nam like most of the people over
there.
He did everything he could think of to get out of Viet Nam, like most of
those drafted.

Kerry volunteered.


Unlike most draftee's, he succeeded in getting out in 4
months.

He wasn't a draftee.
He served 16 months in Viet Nam. One 12-month tour and 4 months of a
second
tour. How many people volunteered for a second tour or served any portion
of
one?

Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and
over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believe them.



But don't ask for a deferment to go to Paris, file for 4 purple hearts
after
receiving minor cuts and then claim to be a war hero.

Wasn't it three purple hearts? And a Bronze Star. And a Silver Star.

BTW, any soldier qualifies for the purple heart if he or she suffers any
combat
related injury, (has to be caused directly by enemy action), if that
combat
related injury requires medical attention. There doesn't even need to be a
loss
of blood. Broken bones and contusions count. If you get nicked in the arm
and
need two or three stitches to sew it up, that meets the
qualification for purple heart.

The only "heroism" attached to Kerry's record was fishing Rassman out of
the
river.

Kerry bought this upon himself, when he tried to make himself out as a war
hero, which is a gross distortion of the facts.

Absolutely a critical campaign mistake.
It lets the Repubs shift the focus to arguing about things that happened
35
years ago rather than taking a hard look at what's going on today.
*Exactly*
the break a failing administration needed.

Gould,
Kerry enlisted in the Navy to get out of being drafted into the army. He
requested a 2S deferment, was denied and chose the Navy as a better
alternative to the army.

And therefore he was not a draftee.

One whole bunch of people opted to join the Coast Guard, the Navy, the Texas
Air National Guard, or etc to avoid trudging through tropical forests while
lugging heavy weapons.

One who volunteers, regardless of the motivation, is not a draftee.

I do appreciate the correction concerning this first term of duty, I was not
aware of that. The question I have is if he spent 12 months in VN, he knew
we were burning villages, raping the population, killing innocent people,
and committing extreme atrocities and war crimes, why did he volunteer for a
term of duty?

Who knows?

In December of 1968, we had 535,000 troops in Viet Nam.

Take any city of 1/2 million people. There are going to be a lot of bad actors.
If 98% of the troops observed the Geneva conventions, and 2% did not, that
means we had about 10,000 jerkoffs in country
who could very conceivably commit atrocities.

Did all, or most, of the guys in Viet Nam commit atrocities? Heck no, unless
you count war itself as an atrocity. Did some guys do every one of the things
that the Winter Soldiers testified about? Certainly.

Without getting bogged down in detail, one of the most lethal forces we had in
Viet Nam was the CIA.

We ran a program called "Phoenix" in Viet Nam, the Viet Namese called if Phung
Hoang. The Phung Hoang, like the Phoenix, was also a giant bird. The Phung
Hoang of legend would snatch people out of their beds at night, just like the
CIA.

"Phoenix" involved methods not in the least approved the Geneva conventions.
Our enlisted fround forces were often used as "muscle" by the CIA, with full
cooperation from the highest levels of command
..
Here's an excerpt from a book by a very highly decorated VN veteran. His
experience was not typical, but it does
add some credibility to stories about cutting off ears, etc.

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's not like
you had their address and telephone number. The normal procedure would be to go
into a village and just grab someone and say, 'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half
the time the people were so afraid they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team
would take the informant, put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he
could see, put commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him
through the village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say, 'April
Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get wasted. As far as they
were concerned whoever answered was a Communist, including family members.
Sometimes they'd come back to camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
-- Vincent Okamoto, combat officer (Lieutenant) in Vietnam in 1968, and
recipient of Distinguished Service Cross, the second highest award conferred by
the U.S. Army. Wounded 3 times. He was also an intelligence liaison officer for
the Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968. Quote is from page 361 of the
hardback 2003 first edition of the book "Patriots: the Vietnam War remembered
from all sides."

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Kerry was forced into going to Viet Nam like most of the people over
there.
He did everything he could think of to get out of Viet Nam, like most of
those drafted.

Kerry volunteered.


Unlike most draftee's, he succeeded in getting out in 4
months.

He wasn't a draftee.
He served 16 months in Viet Nam. One 12-month tour and 4 months of a
second
tour. How many people volunteered for a second tour or served any portion
of
one?

The log book of the USS Gridely has been checked and it was in SEA for five
weeks during Kerry's 12 month tour on the ship. So, Kerry did not serve 16
monts in country.


Just goes to prove that if enough people repeat the same lies over and
over,
pretty soon a great number of folks begin to believethem.

It appears that you are falling into the repeating of lies.



But don't ask for a deferment to go to Paris, file for 4 purple hearts
after
receiving minor cuts and then claim to be a war hero.

Wasn't it three purple hearts? And a Bronze Star. And a Silver Star.

For scratches and wounds due to Kerry's own incompetence.

BTW, any soldier qualifies for the purple heart if he or she suffers any
combat
related injury, (has to be caused directly by enemy action), if that
combat
related injury requires medical attention. There doesn't even need to be a
loss
of blood. Broken bones and contusions count. If you get nicked in the arm
and
need two or three stitches to sew it up, that meets the
qualification for purple heart.

You are correct. But, Kerry should be ashamed for asking for purple hearts
for scratches.

The only "heroism" attached to Kerry's record was fishing Rassman out of
the
river.

Kerry bought this upon himself, when he tried to make himself out as a
war
hero, which is a gross distortion of the facts.

Absolutely a critical campaign mistake.
It lets the Repubs shift the focus to arguing about things that happened
35
years ago rather than taking a hard look at what's going on today.
*Exactly*
the break a failing administration needed.

Maybe if Kerry had done more in the Senate he could run on that record.