Larry Cable wrote:

Walt

Typed in Message-ID:

I have no problem with experinenced boaters with the proper training and
experience shooting class V water. But rafts full of clueless tourists
don't belong there. (and neither do I)

However, the Lower Gauley is a Class III/IV
river at best, most of the river being Class III. It's pool and drop, and
although there are undercuts and other dangers, is relatively easy on swimmers.
The problem with the commercial rafting operations is that they treat
the tourists like so many sacks of potatoes. If the sacks bounce out of
the rafts, the guide rounds them up and hopes he can find them all and
that they're not too damaged. And

if the sack gets hurt, well it's the
sack's fault not the guide's. What's amazing is that they don't kill
more people than they do.

How about the problem being that the average raft customer treats the river as
an amusement park ride and doesn't pay any attention to safety or instructions.

I don't want to totally defend the rafting industry, which has it's share of
problems, but a guide isn't any better than the crew he gets stuck with that
day. Arnold Swartznegger couldn't handle a 16' raft full of tourist that are
all air bracing and not getting a paddle in the water. Yet many passengers seem
to expect that from the guides.

We used to eat lunch at Dimple on the Lower Yough. I would predict which rafts
were going to have trouble with pretty amazing accuracy. After awhile, my
companions asked how I did it. It was pretty simple, you just watched how
effective a stroke the paddlers were taking.
If they were not paddling or using just the tip, banging each others paddles,
etc, it was a good bet that they would bang the Rock at Dimple, not know how to
high side and either flip or dump most of the people out of the raft.

In the immortal words of a young female guide on the Upper Ocoee as she
attempted to ferry to river left above Humongous when all of her "guest" just
stopped paddling, PADDLE!PADDLE!!PADDLE!!!
SYOTR
Larry C.

So, what I have seen, and read, is that experienced river runners tend to down grade a river.

JAM

So, what I have seen, and read, is that experienced river runners tend to down grade a river.

I don't know where you live (i.e. what rivers you are familiar with).
But someone who has just run the Royal Gorge (class IV, but guides call
it class V [at least to customers]) successfully for the first time is
NOT ready for Gore Canyon (real class V).

"J. A. M."

Typed in Message-ID:


So, what I have seen, and read, is that experienced river runners tend to
down grade a river.

JAM


Not at all, I am just stating a realistic view of the difficulty of this rive.
Rafting companies do tend to dramatize the difficulty rating, bu there is
nothing class V about the Lower Gauley. With the exception of Mash and Pure
Screaming Hell, most of the rapids are very straight forward. Even the rapid
that started this thread, Gates of Heaven, only requires that you miss a hole
on the right and not let your boat get pushed too far to the left at the
bottom, it just a matter of paddling down the middle. Big waves don't increase
the difficulty rating on a river.
SYOTR
Larry C.

Larry Cable wrote:

Not at all, I am just stating a realistic view of the difficulty of this rive.
Rafting companies do tend to dramatize the difficulty rating, bu there is
nothing class V about the Lower Gauley. With the exception of Mash and Pure
Screaming Hell, most of the rapids are very straight forward. Even the rapid
that started this thread, Gates of Heaven, only requires that you miss a hole
on the right and not let your boat get pushed too far to the left at the
bottom, it just a matter of paddling down the middle. Big waves don't increase
the difficulty rating on a river.

They do increase the intensity of a swim, however. On the other hand,
swimming in big water might be safer (except for the problem of hypothermia)
than swimming in low water, because there's less possibility of entrapment.
I've been surprised in recent years by the length of swims taken and survived
by rafters wearing drysuits. Several rafters swam for several miles (IIRC)
below Green Wall on the Illinois river in Oregon.

Larry, the AWA Lower Gauley description says that Koontz Flume is IV/IV+
although there's a sneak on the left, not advised due to kayakers waiting
their turn to surf Five Boat Hole. The description does not mention that
The Mashes are class IV. It does say Pure Screaming Hell is class IV+.

http://americanwhitewater.org/rivers/id/2379/

But why does the description assign difficulty as III-IV (V)? Is the (V)
a high-water rating? Usually I take that notation to mean that there is
one class V rapid on the run, usually portaged.

: Bill Tuthill

Typed in essage-ID:

Big waves don't increase
the difficulty rating on a river.

They do increase the intensity of a swim, however. On the other hand,
swimming in big water might be safer (except for the problem of

hypothermia)
than swimming in low water, because there's less possibility of entrapment.
I've been surprised in recent years by the length of swims taken and survived
by rafters wearing drysuits.

Assuming that one didn't just screw the pooch and swim from the absolute top,
where there is no reason to flip, the swim would be less than 100 yards at
release leaves. You may swim farther than that before you get to shore or back
in the boat, but you are already in the pool below.

Go to AW safety, then standard rated rapids for class VI. Mash and PSH are the
ones that they rate staright class IV at release levels.

Koontz's Flume can be a booger. I think that it gets overrated because of the
danger factor from the river right sieve,
but I don't have a problem with calling it a class IV.

But why does the description assign difficulty as III-IV (V)? Is the (V)
a high-water rating? Usually I take that notation to mean that there is
one class V rapid on the run, usually portaged.

I don't know, but that is what I would assume also. But that isn't really the
case with Lower Gauley. I've ran it at levels above 6000 cfs (release leave is
about 2800 cfs) and although you probably didn't want to come out of your boat,
the difficulty factory didn't go up a lot.



SYOTR
Larry C.

Larry Cable wrote:

"J. A. M."

Typed in Message-ID:

So, what I have seen, and read, is that experienced river runners tend to
down grade a river.

JAM


Not at all, I am just stating a realistic view of the difficulty of this rive.
Rafting companies do tend to dramatize the difficulty rating, bu there is
nothing class V about the Lower Gauley. With the exception of Mash and Pure
Screaming Hell, most of the rapids are very straight forward. Even the rapid
that started this thread, Gates of Heaven, only requires that you miss a hole
on the right and not let your boat get pushed too far to the left at the
bottom, it just a matter of paddling down the middle. Big waves don't increase
the difficulty rating on a river.
SYOTR
Larry C.

I never said that the Lower Gauley was class 5. It was the original poster that had it mixed up.

JAM

"J. A. M." wrote

I never said that the Lower Gauley was class 5. It was the original poster that had it mixed up.

No Jimbob, you just stated that it is a load of crap that raft guides
often overstate the difficulty of rapids and that it is another load
of crap that the average raft customer and companies treat river
rafting like some kind of amusement ride.

For someone who has been pushing rubber for 15 years you seem myopic
to practices that many well-travelled and experienced paddlers find
all too common.

(BTW – I recently led my 200th paddling trip, so I've given my share
of safety talks)