Mike McCrea wrote:

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.

That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided?

JAM

J. A. M. wrote:
Mike McCrea wrote:

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.


That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided?

Talking about a load of carp: how many times did you paddle or raft the
Lower Gauley and encounter class V rapids?

I know more than a few rivers on both sides of the Altantic where the
rafting companies seem to have found some mysterious class V rapids that
are yet to be found or paddled by any other paddler, including locals
with hundreds of runs below their belt.

I've also overheard more than a few guides giving this kind of a "class
so and so" speech to their customers, even though they were talking
about runs that were at least one class easier than what they made them
seem to be.

If you want to deny that those practises are pretty common among raft
guides, go ahead... just don't expect experienced paddlers to take you
very serious.


--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko wrote:

J. A. M. wrote:
Mike McCrea wrote:

Celia,

About the class V's - understand that raft guides and companies
typically inflate the actual difficulty of a rapid by one class. If
your guide tells you it's a class V it's probably really a IV, and a
IV really a III.

They are selling an experience, an adventure, and having their
customers memories imprinted with the "Class V" rapid they ran is just
business as usual. Deceptive, but still not unusual.


That's a load of crap! How many rafts have you guided?

Talking about a load of carp: how many times did you paddle or raft the
Lower Gauley and encounter class V rapids?

I know more than a few rivers on both sides of the Altantic where the
rafting companies seem to have found some mysterious class V rapids that
are yet to be found or paddled by any other paddler, including locals
with hundreds of runs below their belt.

I've also overheard more than a few guides giving this kind of a "class
so and so" speech to their customers, even though they were talking
about runs that were at least one class easier than what they made them
seem to be.

If you want to deny that those practises are pretty common among raft
guides, go ahead... just don't expect experienced paddlers to take you
very serious.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

The Lower Gauley is class 4. Unless you've been stuffed under one of the rocks or run over by a raft. Then it's class 6!

Heavens Gate is not that hard to run. It's easier than Upper Mash or Pure Screaming Hell. The left gate is under cut but you have to get close to it for maximum effect. A large rock, just down stream on the left is also a danger. The face of it is flat, some say concave, and it splits the current. I've seen swimmers held against it for several seconds before washing out.

JAM

J. A. M. wrote:
Wilko wrote:

J. A. M. wrote:

The Lower Gauley is class 4. Unless you've been stuffed under one of the rocks or run over by a raft. Then it's class 6!

The international difficulty rating has nothing to do with consequences,
but all with how difficult it is to stay on your line, because of the
width of the line, the manouvering required because of holes, waves,
rocks, drops, speed of current etc..

Getting stuffed under a rock says nothing about how difficult it is to
run the lines. Calling consequences a certain class makes no sense.
Strainers can kill, does that make running over a fallen tree on an
almost fla****er river it suddenly class VI?

As for your class IV rating for the entire lower Gauley, I think only a
few of the rapids on the lower Gauley deserve that rating. But where
does that leave the rafting guides' claims of it being class V?

Heavens Gate is not that hard to run. It's easier than Upper Mash or Pure Screaming Hell. The left gate is under cut but you have to get close to it for maximum effect. A large rock, just down stream on the left is also a danger. The face of it is flat, some say concave, and it splits the current. I've seen swimmers held against it for several seconds before washing out.

Just FYI: I've run the Gauley a couple of times, the upper more than the
lower, but still, often enough to know what I'm talking about.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko

typed in Message-ID:

As for your class IV rating for the entire lower Gauley, I think only a
few of the rapids on the lower Gauley deserve that rating. But where
does that leave the rafting guides' claims of it being class V?

I agree with Wilko on this one, and I've paddled it more than a couple of times
and in several different type craft. The AW standard rating system gives only
two class IV rapids on the Lower Gauley, Mash and PSH (at fall release levels).
I personally would add Koontz's Flume, although there is an easy line down
river left. So that would make it a Class III/IV run or a Class III(IV),
designating that most of the river is Class III with a couple of class IV's.
SYOTR
Larry C.

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:23:21 +0200, Wilko wrote:


The international difficulty rating has nothing to do with consequences,
but all with how difficult it is to stay on your line, because of the
width of the line, the manouvering required because of holes, waves,
rocks, drops, speed of current etc..


Hmmm according to the international scale of river difficulty (I found the
following on the americanwhitewater.org site)

class I - "... Risk to swimmers is slight; self-rescue is easy."

class II - "... Swimers are seldom injured and group assistance, while
helpful, is seldom needed. ..."

class III - "... Injuries while swimming are rare; self-rescue is usually
easy but group assistance may be required to avoid long swims. ..."

class IV - "... Risk of injury to swimmers is moderate to high, and water
conditions may make self-rescue difficult. group assistance for rescue is
often essential but requires practiced skills. ..."

class V - "... swims are dangerous, and rescue is often difficult even for
experts. ..."

class VI - " ... The consequences of errors are very severe and rescue may
be impossible. ..."

So each of the classes does define what the consequences are

Cheyenne

Cheyenne Wills wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:23:21 +0200, Wilko wrote:


The international difficulty rating has nothing to do with consequences,
but all with how difficult it is to stay on your line, because of the
width of the line, the manouvering required because of holes, waves,
rocks, drops, speed of current etc..



Hmmm according to the international scale of river difficulty (I found the
following on the americanwhitewater.org site)

Exactly, you got the *American Whitewater* version of the classes, which
for some bizarre reason includes consequences, not the international
scale of *difficulty* rating.

Apples and oranges.

Difficulty and consequences have little do to with eachother, and I
would understand it if they would add a seperate factor for consequences
(maybe another one for remoteness etc., a al Corran style), but that
would make the scale even more difficult to use. How do you rate
consequences, anyway?

I'm not a big fan of ratings, thinking that they should be nothing more
than guidelines for people wanting to take a first trip down something
when having done similarly rated rapids before. The real decision should
be made on the spot, including the feelings and atmosphere of the
moment. That decision making process should include the perceived
consequences, not some bizarre combined rating. Is something a class IV
because of a class I line with class VI consequences? What are class VI
consequences exactly?

Polluting the ratings makes them even less useful and more subjective,
especially when you look at the regional differences already in effect
(western U.S., eastern U.S., etc.).

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Here is an alternative guide to grades.

class I - "... Risk to swimmers is slight; self-rescue is easy."
Take the Mother-in-law

class II - "... Swimers are seldom injured and group assistance, while
helpful, is seldom needed. ..."
Take the Girlfriend

class III - "... Injuries while swimming are rare; self-rescue is usually
easy but group assistance may be required to avoid long swims. ..."
Take the Wife

class IV - "... Risk of injury to swimmers is moderate to high, and water
conditions may make self-rescue difficult. group assistance for rescue is
often essential but requires practiced skills. ..."
Take the Mistress

class V - "... swims are dangerous, and rescue is often difficult even for
experts. ..."
Take the Photographs

class VI - " ... The consequences of errors are very severe and rescue may
be impossible. ..."
Take the Mother-in-law

--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk

I stand corrected Jimbob; everyone knows a raft guide would never
exaggerate and I'm sure Celia's trip really "started out with a Class
V, and ended with a Class V. They were all pretty much evenly spaced
out."

In message , Mike
McCrea writes
I stand corrected Jimbob; everyone knows a raft guide would never
exaggerate and I'm sure Celia's trip really "started out with a Class
V, and ended with a Class V. They were all pretty much evenly spaced
out."

It would appear that Celia's trip was class VI but only as she perceived
it

--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk