Not necessarily. Do you need someone to tell you how to behave in public?

Of course not.

And, funny thing, I'll bet most of the poison pen posters don't think they're
behaving badly (by their own standards, at least). One of that crowd recently
made some very childish remarks about the sexuality of some other posters, then
tried to deny he'd done so, and in the end said "well, you would have thought
it was funny if you had a properly developed sense of humor."
Do I suspect this is the way a guy like that
behaves when not on-line? Absolutely.

in The Real World(tm), life generally goes
quite a bit more smoothly when we are courteous to others.

It's dangerous to presume that others have
any interest in life going smoothly. Some kids just love to break things.

Joe Parsons wrote:
On 07 Nov 2003 08:15:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

Rules, schmules....Any restriction will ultimately require a moderator.

Not necessarily. Do you need someone to tell you how to behave in public?
Probably not--you were most likely brought up to observe certain societal norms
and mores, and observe them because, in The Real World(tm), life generally goes
quite a bit more smoothly when we are courteous to others.

Do you observe no-wake zones even when you know there's no law enforcement
around? Bet you do--because it's the *right* thing to do--and because real
people are likely to yell at you if you don't. But more because it's the right
thing to do.

Uh, who elected *you* the Ms. Manners of usenet?

--
Email sent to is never read.

On 07 Nov 2003 08:15:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Suggestion: How about two continuous threads to contain *all* political posts?
One could be "Right Wing Fallacies and Enlightened LIberal Rebuttals", and the
other could be "Treasonous Left Wing Socialist Rantings and Patriotic
Conservatives' outraged reactions."

=================================================

That's an interesting suggestion and it might work. I'd be concerned
about the threads becoming polluted over time however by someone
slipping in a remark about boats or boating. That would inspire the
political die hards to start a new thread and the circle would begin
again.

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

OK, I'm saying so.

Steve H.

Noah, if the regulars wanted to have an off topic group to discuss politics
and the sexual habits of the opponents there is a group called alt.boats
that is available on many servers.


"noah" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:
A sister
"discussion" group for OT can be created. But it is ALL subject to
being supported, defended, and voted on by the people who frequent
here. Support for the change will have to be more than "casual" to be
effective.
Safe, and happy boating,
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
...as you were. )

On 7 Nov 2003 00:53:16 -0600, noah wrote:

[snip]

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

Gene, you made my day.

When I first posted my "whine" about OT, I got good email support from
casual visitors, but only one "reg". I backed off. If I couldn't get
the support from regs, then the vote probably wouldn't do well.

Because of the fundamental makeup of rec.boats, I believe any sort of vote would
be essentially irrelevant. An unmoderated newsgroup has to operate by
consensus.

This newsgroup can be changed. An FAQ can be adopted. A sister
"discussion" group for OT can be created.

And watch that group be roundly ignored. The people who are most visible in
these squabbles *enjoy* the attention. I've seen exactly this kind of
phenomenon in at least two other newsgroups. One of them died a lingering
death; the other...well, we don't know just yet.

ut it is ALL subject to
being supported, defended, and voted on by the people who frequent
here. Support for the change will have to be more than "casual" to be
effective.

I agree wholeheartedly--with the exception of the "vote." Consensus, yes.
Vote, meaningless.

Taking a vote presupposes that the kind of nasty, arrogant, doctrinaire,
personal bickering *might* be acceptable, and sanctioned. Since I don't think
there's a lot of doubt about the kind of damage this does to a newsgroup, a vote
would not be honored even if it were to "approve" of what is going on now.

In the 5 or so years that I have been around here, there has been a
definite decline in the number of on-topic posts, and posters.

Go back less than that--but for crying out loud, folks, don't try to lay the
blame for the deterioration on [Clinton][Hillary][GWBush][Pat
Robertson][whoever].

We deserve better. The group deserves better. It is my opinipon that
the level of OT posting is now inviting outside trolls to pump up the
OT.

Again, in case I haven't said it for the last 15 nanoseconds or so: the problem
in rec.boats is NOT off-topic posts. Those are just fine, IMO.

have been told that "this is the way it is". That rec.boats is
an open forum, like the lounge at the yacht club.

I have belonged to, or been associated with, four yacht clubs in my life. I
have *never* seen this kind of bickering, even in the most heated discussions.
Most people just don't behave like this in Real Life(tm). There's too much risk
of confrontation--even of personal injury. Here, we see lots of posturing and
rhetoric--but generally from the safety of anonymous accounts.

I may be alone in
my opinion, but I don't buy it, and I don't like it. I have
participated in OT threads, but I would rather do it elsewhere. There
is a reason that there are over 40,000 newsgroups.

Try 90,000 newsgroups.

Each one, believe
it or not, has a "topic". )

"Topics" are commonly ignored--and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Thanks for your thoughts, Noah.

Joe Parsons

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:25:06 +0000, Joe Parsons wrote:

On 7 Nov 2003 00:53:16 -0600, noah wrote:
We deserve better. The group deserves better. It is my opinipon that the
level of OT posting is now inviting outside trolls to pump up the OT.

Again, in case I haven't said it for the last 15 nanoseconds or so: the problem
in rec.boats is NOT off-topic posts. Those are just fine, IMO.

have been told that "this is the way it is". That rec.boats is
an open forum, like the lounge at the yacht club.

I have belonged to, or been associated with, four yacht clubs in my life. I
have *never* seen this kind of bickering, even in the most heated discussions.
Most people just don't behave like this in Real Life(tm). There's too much risk
of confrontation--even of personal injury. Here, we see lots of posturing and
rhetoric--but generally from the safety of anonymous accounts.


I gotta side with Joe on this - it's not the OT posts, or even political
"debate" - it's the bipartisanism that invades ALL posts in this NG. If you're
"conservative" and post an on-topic post, it isn't long before a "liberal" will
start at the very least making assumptions about the way you think, and more
likely start attacking you personally. (and vice versa...).

A shiver of dread goes through me every time I send a post, OT or not, to this
NG, because most replies are vicious, personal and/or political (fortunately
Canada is Multi-partisan, so there's less "proving" one party is good by
"proving" the other party is bad), and I'm basically sick of it. It's SO much
easier to wait until someone else posts something and then attack them.

I belong to a fishing message-board and there's also a "OT" (they call it NFR -
Not Fishing-Related) debate there. But there, the atmosphere is SO much more
friendly! NFR posts are usually humourous, even the "highjacked" FR posts, and
there's very little personal attacking (except good-natured barbs, etc)

It's the overall "tone" of this NG, in both on-topic and OT posts, that makes it
suck so bad.

Lloyd Sumpter, Green Party supporter

Normally there is a "leader" who sets the pattern and tone of the posts and
if he is consistent in his attacks and tone, one person can change the
personality of any group. My guess is you have someone who enjoys the name
calling and has been a regular in here for awhile.

All we need to do is look back in Google to see who in here started the
attacks and then we can blame him/her. ; )


"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:25:06 +0000, Joe Parsons wrote:

On 7 Nov 2003 00:53:16 -0600, noah
wrote:
We deserve better. The group deserves better. It is my opinipon that
the
level of OT posting is now inviting outside trolls to pump up the OT.

Again, in case I haven't said it for the last 15 nanoseconds or so: the
problem
in rec.boats is NOT off-topic posts. Those are just fine, IMO.

have been told that "this is the way it is". That rec.boats is
an open forum, like the lounge at the yacht club.

I have belonged to, or been associated with, four yacht clubs in my
life. I
have *never* seen this kind of bickering, even in the most heated
discussions.
Most people just don't behave like this in Real Life(tm). There's too
much risk
of confrontation--even of personal injury. Here, we see lots of
posturing and
rhetoric--but generally from the safety of anonymous accounts.


I gotta side with Joe on this - it's not the OT posts, or even political
"debate" - it's the bipartisanism that invades ALL posts in this NG. If
you're
"conservative" and post an on-topic post, it isn't long before a "liberal"
will
start at the very least making assumptions about the way you think, and
more
likely start attacking you personally. (and vice versa...).

A shiver of dread goes through me every time I send a post, OT or not, to
this
NG, because most replies are vicious, personal and/or political
(fortunately
Canada is Multi-partisan, so there's less "proving" one party is good by
"proving" the other party is bad), and I'm basically sick of it. It's SO
much
easier to wait until someone else posts something and then attack them.

I belong to a fishing message-board and there's also a "OT" (they call it
NFR -
Not Fishing-Related) debate there. But there, the atmosphere is SO much
more
friendly! NFR posts are usually humourous, even the "highjacked" FR posts,
and
there's very little personal attacking (except good-natured barbs, etc)

It's the overall "tone" of this NG, in both on-topic and OT posts, that
makes it
suck so bad.

Lloyd Sumpter, Green Party supporter

"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:25:06 +0000, Joe Parsons wrote:

On 7 Nov 2003 00:53:16 -0600, noah
wrote:
We deserve better. The group deserves better. It is my opinipon that
the
level of OT posting is now inviting outside trolls to pump up the OT.

Again, in case I haven't said it for the last 15 nanoseconds or so: the
problem
in rec.boats is NOT off-topic posts. Those are just fine, IMO.

have been told that "this is the way it is". That rec.boats is
an open forum, like the lounge at the yacht club.

I have belonged to, or been associated with, four yacht clubs in my
life. I
have *never* seen this kind of bickering, even in the most heated
discussions.
Most people just don't behave like this in Real Life(tm). There's too
much risk
of confrontation--even of personal injury. Here, we see lots of
posturing and
rhetoric--but generally from the safety of anonymous accounts.


I gotta side with Joe on this - it's not the OT posts, or even political
"debate" - it's the bipartisanism that invades ALL posts in this NG. If
you're
"conservative" and post an on-topic post, it isn't long before a "liberal"
will
start at the very least making assumptions about the way you think, and
more
likely start attacking you personally. (and vice versa...).


And if your boating style or type of boat owned does not meet Eugene Kerns
criteria, you will be flamed by him.

He lives in a glass house but does not realize it. This thread proves it.

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...

Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

Hey Gene, I seem to remember you coming down on me as a non boater because I
only put 50-70 hours/year on the engines (I live up north and do not use the
boat for fishing). I directed you to a website detailing every aspect of my
boat, with pictures. I explained to you how my family and I used the boat,
including spending every spring/summer/early fall weekend on it along with 2
solid weeks during the summer. That was not good enough for you. Because
my boating lifestyle differed from yours you found it necessary to flame me
and call me a non boater. Unbelievable.

You have joined in on many OT threads. You have done your share of flaming.

Try some soul searching pal...you will find out that you live in a glass
house with many broken windows.