On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite
- show quoted text -
Take a chill pill. Or maybe you've already taken too many?

First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from
scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order
the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material
with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM,
Ford or Tesla. What the auto manufacturers bring to the table
is manufacturing capacity.

Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this
case. It was GM (big business, remember?) who was trying to
extort and take advantage of a national crisis. “
- show quoted text -

I’m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn’t already put them into production. Or the people who make CPAC machines for that matter



Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under
the Defense Production Act. Maybe the US plants do.

The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel. The key
is manufacturing capacity and space to do it, something the auto
manufacturers have.

Issue here is that GM, Ford and Tesla offered without being
asked or directed to by invoking the act. GM apparently
reneged somewhat, lowering how many they could build
and upping the price.

Remains to be seen what Ford and Tesla does.



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 3/27/20 7:56 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite
- show quoted text -
Take a chill pill.Â* Or maybe you've already taken too many?

First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from
scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order
the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material
with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM,
Ford or Tesla.Â* What the auto manufacturers bring to the table
is manufacturing capacity.

Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this
case.Â* It was GM (big business, remember?)Â* who was trying to
extort and take advantage of a national crisis. “
- show quoted text -

I’m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn’t already put
them into production.Â* Or the people who make CPAC machines for that
matter



Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under
the Defense Production Act.Â* Maybe the US plants do.

The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel.Â* The key
is manufacturing capacity and space to do it,Â* something the auto
manufacturers have.

Issue here is that GM, Ford and Tesla offered without being
asked or directed to by invoking the act.Â* GM apparently
reneged somewhat, lowering how many they could build
and upping the price.

Remains to be seen what Ford and Tesla does.



The reality is, the Trump Administration is not being transparent on
this issue, and therefore we don't know what transpired between Trump
and GM. Just today, he apparently told Pence not to call the governors
of at least two states regarding the virus because they didn't
"appreciate" him.

Keyser Soze Wrote in message:
On 3/27/20 7:56 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote: Mr. Luddite - show quoted text - Take a chill pill. Or maybe you've already taken too many? First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM, Ford or Tesla. What the auto manufacturers bring to the table is manufacturing capacity. Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this case. It was GM (big business, remember?) who was trying to extort and take advantage of a national crisis. +IBw - show quoted text - I+IBk-m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn+IBk-t already put them into production. Or the people who make CPAC machines for that matter Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under the Defense Production Act. Maybe the US plants do. The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel. The key is manufacturing capacity and space to do it, something the auto manufacturers have. Issue here is that GM, Ford and Tesla offered without being asked or directed to by invoking the act. GM apparently reneged somewhat, lowering how many they could build and upping the price. Remains to be seen what Ford and Tesla does. The reality is, the Trump Administration is not being transparent on this issue, and therefore we don't know what transpired between Trump and GM. Just today, he apparently told Pence not to call the governors of at least two states regarding the virus because they didn't "appreciate" him.

Which begs the question , If Fat Harry doesn't know what
transpired how does he known Trump hasn't been transparent? Fat
Harry needs to engage his brain before he lets crap fly from his
keyboard.
--
..


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 19:56:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite
- show quoted text -
Take a chill pill. Or maybe you've already taken too many?

First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from
scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order
the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material
with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM,
Ford or Tesla. What the auto manufacturers bring to the table
is manufacturing capacity.

Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this
case. It was GM (big business, remember?) who was trying to
extort and take advantage of a national crisis. “
- show quoted text -

I’m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn’t already put them into production. Or the people who make CPAC machines for that matter



Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under
the Defense Production Act. Maybe the US plants do.

The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel. The key
is manufacturing capacity and space to do it, something the auto
manufacturers have.


You may not need to reinvent the wheel but you can certainly make
stamped steel wheels and not those gold plated things that cost
$30,000 and do far more than you really need. I would simply fall back
to the difference between a M1928 (Al Capone) Thompson SMG and the
stamped steel M3 Grease Gun. Certainly the Thompson is prettier and
has more features but when you just want to throw lead at the bad guy,
an M3 is all you need.
All we are trying to do is help someone get air in their lungs and
back out. In reality that is all a CPAP machine is too. Tim is right.
Similar function and technology.

On 3/28/2020 11:08 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 19:56:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite
- show quoted text -
Take a chill pill. Or maybe you've already taken too many?

First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from
scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order
the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material
with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM,
Ford or Tesla. What the auto manufacturers bring to the table
is manufacturing capacity.

Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this
case. It was GM (big business, remember?) who was trying to
extort and take advantage of a national crisis. “
- show quoted text -

I’m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn’t already put them into production. Or the people who make CPAC machines for that matter



Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under
the Defense Production Act. Maybe the US plants do.

The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel. The key
is manufacturing capacity and space to do it, something the auto
manufacturers have.


You may not need to reinvent the wheel but you can certainly make
stamped steel wheels and not those gold plated things that cost
$30,000 and do far more than you really need. I would simply fall back
to the difference between a M1928 (Al Capone) Thompson SMG and the
stamped steel M3 Grease Gun. Certainly the Thompson is prettier and
has more features but when you just want to throw lead at the bad guy,
an M3 is all you need.
All we are trying to do is help someone get air in their lungs and
back out. In reality that is all a CPAP machine is too. Tim is right.
Similar function and technology.



I saw a doctor being asked if a CPAP machine could be modified for
use as a ventilator. Answer was "No".

Also saw another doc who is currently working in a hospital in
NYC. He explained the protocols and steps taken when a person
is admitted with covid-19 and has difficulty breathing.

They are not put on a ventilator initially. They start with a
oxygen face mask. If the patient responds well, that's all
they do.

Often though, the patient will initially seem to do better
but then deteriorate. At that point they use another type
of oxygen delivery system that is under pressure.

If that fails, they go to another oxygen system that I can't
remember how it differs, but somehow it's a 'high delivery"
system.

If that fails the patient is then put on a ventilator.
The doc said the ventilator is used when all else has
failed and is used as a last resort.



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 07:21:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/28/2020 11:08 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 19:56:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite
- show quoted text -
Take a chill pill. Or maybe you've already taken too many?

First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from
scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order
the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material
with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM,
Ford or Tesla. What the auto manufacturers bring to the table
is manufacturing capacity.

Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this
case. It was GM (big business, remember?) who was trying to
extort and take advantage of a national crisis. “
- show quoted text -

I’m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn’t already put them into production. Or the people who make CPAC machines for that matter



Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under
the Defense Production Act. Maybe the US plants do.

The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel. The key
is manufacturing capacity and space to do it, something the auto
manufacturers have.


You may not need to reinvent the wheel but you can certainly make
stamped steel wheels and not those gold plated things that cost
$30,000 and do far more than you really need. I would simply fall back
to the difference between a M1928 (Al Capone) Thompson SMG and the
stamped steel M3 Grease Gun. Certainly the Thompson is prettier and
has more features but when you just want to throw lead at the bad guy,
an M3 is all you need.
All we are trying to do is help someone get air in their lungs and
back out. In reality that is all a CPAP machine is too. Tim is right.
Similar function and technology.



I saw a doctor being asked if a CPAP machine could be modified for
use as a ventilator. Answer was "No".

Also saw another doc who is currently working in a hospital in
NYC. He explained the protocols and steps taken when a person
is admitted with covid-19 and has difficulty breathing.

They are not put on a ventilator initially. They start with a
oxygen face mask. If the patient responds well, that's all
they do.

Often though, the patient will initially seem to do better
but then deteriorate. At that point they use another type
of oxygen delivery system that is under pressure.

If that fails, they go to another oxygen system that I can't
remember how it differs, but somehow it's a 'high delivery"
system.

If that fails the patient is then put on a ventilator.
The doc said the ventilator is used when all else has
failed and is used as a last resort.

I still haven't heard what the survival rate is when measures go that
far.

I suppose the CPAP just does not provide the delivery pressure to
inflate a lung. I have seen one, my IBM buddy has one now but I never
really paid that much attention to it.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 08:04:49 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 07:21:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/28/2020 11:08 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 19:56:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/27/2020 7:35 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite
- show quoted text -
Take a chill pill. Or maybe you've already taken too many?

First of all, it's not like GM or Ford or Tesla has to start from
scratch. The POTUS under the Defense Production Act can order
the design drawings, manufacturing procedures, bills of material
with sources from any current manufacturer to be given to GM,
Ford or Tesla. What the auto manufacturers bring to the table
is manufacturing capacity.

Second, I am surprised to see you dumping on the Donald in this
case. It was GM (big business, remember?) who was trying to
extort and take advantage of a national crisis. “
- show quoted text -

I’m surprised that someone like Toyota or Honda hasn’t already put them into production. Or the people who make CPAC machines for that matter



Toyota or Honda could probably do it but I am not sure they fall under
the Defense Production Act. Maybe the US plants do.

The key isn't a need to re-invent the wheel. The key
is manufacturing capacity and space to do it, something the auto
manufacturers have.


You may not need to reinvent the wheel but you can certainly make
stamped steel wheels and not those gold plated things that cost
$30,000 and do far more than you really need. I would simply fall back
to the difference between a M1928 (Al Capone) Thompson SMG and the
stamped steel M3 Grease Gun. Certainly the Thompson is prettier and
has more features but when you just want to throw lead at the bad guy,
an M3 is all you need.
All we are trying to do is help someone get air in their lungs and
back out. In reality that is all a CPAP machine is too. Tim is right.
Similar function and technology.



I saw a doctor being asked if a CPAP machine could be modified for
use as a ventilator. Answer was "No".

Also saw another doc who is currently working in a hospital in
NYC. He explained the protocols and steps taken when a person
is admitted with covid-19 and has difficulty breathing.

They are not put on a ventilator initially. They start with a
oxygen face mask. If the patient responds well, that's all
they do.

Often though, the patient will initially seem to do better
but then deteriorate. At that point they use another type
of oxygen delivery system that is under pressure.

If that fails, they go to another oxygen system that I can't
remember how it differs, but somehow it's a 'high delivery"
system.

If that fails the patient is then put on a ventilator.
The doc said the ventilator is used when all else has
failed and is used as a last resort.

I still haven't heard what the survival rate is when measures go that
far.

I suppose the CPAP just does not provide the delivery pressure to
inflate a lung. I have seen one, my IBM buddy has one now but I never
really paid that much attention to it.

A good article on what happens to the lung:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/26/healt...deo/index.html
--

Freedom Isn't Free!

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 08:04:49 -0400, wrote:

I saw a doctor being asked if a CPAP machine could be modified for
use as a ventilator. Answer was "No".

Also saw another doc who is currently working in a hospital in
NYC. He explained the protocols and steps taken when a person
is admitted with covid-19 and has difficulty breathing.

They are not put on a ventilator initially. They start with a
oxygen face mask. If the patient responds well, that's all
they do.

Often though, the patient will initially seem to do better
but then deteriorate. At that point they use another type
of oxygen delivery system that is under pressure.

If that fails, they go to another oxygen system that I can't
remember how it differs, but somehow it's a 'high delivery"
system.

If that fails the patient is then put on a ventilator.
The doc said the ventilator is used when all else has
failed and is used as a last resort.

I still haven't heard what the survival rate is when measures go that
far.

===

I read somewhere recently that the survival rate for ICU patients on
ventilators was about 50%, and virtually all of the 50% survivors had
some permanent lung damage. Unfortunately I don't have the original
cite for that.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 3/29/2020 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 08:04:49 -0400, wrote:

I saw a doctor being asked if a CPAP machine could be modified for
use as a ventilator. Answer was "No".

Also saw another doc who is currently working in a hospital in
NYC. He explained the protocols and steps taken when a person
is admitted with covid-19 and has difficulty breathing.

They are not put on a ventilator initially. They start with a
oxygen face mask. If the patient responds well, that's all
they do.

Often though, the patient will initially seem to do better
but then deteriorate. At that point they use another type
of oxygen delivery system that is under pressure.

If that fails, they go to another oxygen system that I can't
remember how it differs, but somehow it's a 'high delivery"
system.

If that fails the patient is then put on a ventilator.
The doc said the ventilator is used when all else has
failed and is used as a last resort.

I still haven't heard what the survival rate is when measures go that
far.

===


I read somewhere recently that the survival rate for ICU patients on
ventilators was about 50%, and virtually all of the 50% survivors had
some permanent lung damage. Unfortunately I don't have the original
cite for that.


The doc I heard said basically the same thing which was a surprise to
me. The ventilators that are being talked about so much are the
"last ditch" effort to try to save people who are severely affected
and the survival rate, as you say and as the doc said, is only
about 50 percent ... maybe even less.



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 3/29/20 12:02 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/29/2020 11:13 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 08:04:49 -0400, wrote:

I saw a doctor being asked if a CPAP machine could be modified for
use as a ventilator.Â*Â* Answer was "No".

Also saw another doc who is currently working in a hospital in
NYC.Â* He explained the protocols and steps taken when a person
is admitted with covid-19 and has difficulty breathing.

They are not put on a ventilator initially.Â* They start with a
oxygen face mask.Â* If the patient responds well, that's all
they do.

Often though, the patient will initially seem to do better
but then deteriorate.Â* At that point they use another type
of oxygen delivery system that is under pressure.

If that fails, they go to another oxygen system that I can't
remember how it differs, but somehow it's a 'high delivery"
system.

If that fails the patient is then put on a ventilator.
The doc said the ventilator is used when all else has
failed and is used as a last resort.

I still haven't heard what the survival rate is when measures go that
far.

===


I read somewhere recently that the survival rate for ICU patients on
ventilators was about 50%, and virtually all of the 50% survivors had
some permanent lung damage.Â* Unfortunately I don't have the original
cite for that.


The doc I heard said basically the same thing which was a surprise to
me.Â* The ventilators that are being talked about so much are the
"last ditch" effort to try to save people who are severely affected
and the survival rate, as you say and as the doc said, is only
about 50 percent ... maybe even less.




What we need are massive, city by city rallies of Trump supporters
interacting on a close, personal level, especially the ones who bought
into their saviour's bull**** of how insignificant the impact of the
virus would be. Party on, and then head to Florida's west coast beaches.