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#21
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 12:29:27 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart
wrote: Wrote in message: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. wrote:On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first gotinto ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equippedwith GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had muchto offer over the old ways.I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found thatthe only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points intothe chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never hadto revert to navigating by charts and compass alone.I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation totheir crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someonepointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a realwar. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just sayingeveryone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basicskills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash registerand watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. Pretty soon all us folks who remember how it used to be will be dead and material currency will be a collectors item. Wars will be fought with joysticks. Future combatants are being trained by video games. Wars may be fought with joysticks but they will be won by a guy with a rifle on the ground. You just have to look at Iraq to see that. We bombed the **** out of them but we needed to occupy the country to actually change anything, even if it was for the worse. |
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#23
posted to rec.boats
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. |
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#24
posted to rec.boats
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Unfortunately, if I headed west looking for land, odds are I would have empty tank before land. |
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#25
posted to rec.boats
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:17:08 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. |
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#26
posted to rec.boats
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 15:30:59 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote:
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 6:17:08 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Unfortunately, if I headed west looking for land, odds are I would have empty tank before land. Turn your compass around.  LOL! |
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#27
posted to rec.boats
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:34 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:14:10 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 1:31 AM, wrote: On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 22:50:10 -0500 (EST), Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. Did you read what John wrote? People who trust their GPS blindly, hit things that are not in the database. The database for the bay here is pretty much useless anyway unless you just accept "don't go there" as an answer. The other issue is, if your electronics fail, do you just drop anchor and call sea tow, hoping they can triangulate your position on their radio or something? I know people who think their Garmin Chart Plotter is all they ever need. They don't even have a compass and no charts on board ... if they could read them in the first place. If that chart plotter craps out they are screwed, particularly at night. OTOH I navigate at night using local landmarks (radio towers, condos, mangrove islands I recognize) and simply knowing where I am and where I am going. Greg, your feelings are pretty much exactly how I felt when I first got into ocean boating. But once I graduated to the larger boats equipped with GPS, chart plotters and radar I realized that technology had much to offer over the old ways. I still had paper charts aboard and obviously a compass but found that the only time I had to use the charts was to program way-points into the chart plotter before getting underway in the morning. Never had to revert to navigating by charts and compass alone. I saw that the Navy is going back to teaching celestial navigation to their crews so somebody must think it is important. I suppose someone pointed out the GPS satellites might only last a couple days in a real war. I am not saying these new things are not handy. I am just saying everyone is depending on technology too much and forgetting basic skills. It is not just boating. Stand next to a broken cash register and watch the kid try to make change. It is scary. The Navy is teaching the basics of celestial navigation at the Academy only to midshipmen but it's in no way intended to be a serious navigation tool or method. Part of the reason is a public relations thing after a Navy ship ran aground, but it had nothing to do with failure of GPS or other electronic navigation systems. In other words .... it was operator error. Today, if the GPS system went down, half of our precision guided weaponry wouldn't work either ... or be totally inaccurate. I guess that is why that even the tertiary powers are trying to get anti satellite capability. |
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#28
posted to rec.boats
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Back in the olden days (79-80) my buddy could find his secret spot in the Chesapeake bay just using landmarks onshore and a depth "scratcher". It was a 33 mile run down there from the marina. Now it is trivial to see using google earth and a $59 GPS would put you down on it. 37.736061 -75.934284 Then follow that cut southwest. |
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#29
posted to rec.boats
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 23:17:06 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks a 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Unfortunately, if I headed west looking for land, odds are I would have empty tank before land. Me too. That was how the 5 "lost patrol" guys died. They were over the Atlantic and thought they were in the Gulf. My sailboat buddy did the opposite coming back from Belize. They thought they were in the Atlantic and they were in the Gulf. They decided due North was the best plan. They would hit North Carolina. They hit St Pete. Being a sailboat, fuel was not an issue but food and water were getting pretty serious. |
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#30
posted to rec.boats
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Boat crash in Ft. Lauderdale
On 1/2/2020 7:34 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 17:48:30 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/2/2020 11:29 AM, wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 07:05:19 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 1/1/2020 10:50 PM, Justan Ohlphart wrote: Wrote in message: On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 13:00:28 -0500, John H. wrote:On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:John H. wrote: On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:13:43 -0500, Alex wrote: Last night... https://wsvn.com/news/local/several-injured-after-boat-crashes-into-jetty-near-fort-lauderdale/ Cocktails? Not every jetty shows up on a GPS. That happened a few times in Deale, MD, when folks would follow the GPS to get home. Midnight and speed. He was not going slow to get that far up the rocks ina 42’ boat.For sure speed. Same thing happens in Deale. Going fast and taking the line offered by the GPS hasbeen the problem more than once. Everyone knows I am the real Luddite here but I fear modernelectronics is taking the place of basic seamanship and the importanceof local knowledge. Why do you fear modern ways of navigating? If you should ever decide to expand your horizons, you might embrace some of the newer technology available. I think that the advent of GPS, chart plotters and radar (if understood and used properly) have made boating (and aviation) much safer than in the days of compasses and paper charts. That still doesn't mean you can avoid learning the basics of seamanship and navigation. For a river and bay boater like me, that is all overkill anyway. If I was trying to find a small Caribbean island in a big ocean, I see the need but just trying to avoid a jetty or oyster bar that may not be in the database in the first place is just giving a false sense of security. Don't think we were talking "seamanship". That's a wide ranging subject. Boating with "local knowledge" really isn't celestial navigation either. I think very few of us .... with the exception of Wayne ... really needs to know how to navigate by the stars. Even local boating for me was primarily local knowledge. Even on fishing trips, 30-40 miles off shore didn't require any great navigation skills. In fact, without GPS, it would be almost impossible to find our "secret spot" for cod. Without GPS, I would probably be up to a half mile away. With GPS, I could find the rise on the ocean bottom in 260 feet of water that was our "secret spot" within a couple of yards. If the GPS crapped out, all I really had to do is follow the compass west. Eventually, I'd hit land. Back in the olden days (79-80) my buddy could find his secret spot in the Chesapeake bay just using landmarks onshore and a depth "scratcher". It was a 33 mile run down there from the marina. Now it is trivial to see using google earth and a $59 GPS would put you down on it. 37.736061 -75.934284 Then follow that cut southwest. Difference is that my "secret spot" was 32 miles offshore from Scituate, MA and there are no on-shore landmarks in sight. |
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