On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)

On 4/28/2019 6:18 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)



Heh. I learned a long time ago that anyone who claims to understand the
physics of lightning and can reliably predict it's effects should be
taken with a grain of salt. :-)

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 08:23:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2019 6:18 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)



Heh. I learned a long time ago that anyone who claims to understand the
physics of lightning and can reliably predict it's effects should be
taken with a grain of salt. :-)


===

Yes, Ben Franklin is lucky to have survived his kite flying
experiment. Right here in SWFL is a good place to do research since
we have so many thunderstorms in the summer. In 15 years we've lost
one tree and a bunch of electronic devices. A neighbor a few blocks
over had their boat struck at the dock. It fried about $25K in
electronics.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 09:26:43 -0400,
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 08:23:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2019 6:18 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)



Heh. I learned a long time ago that anyone who claims to understand the
physics of lightning and can reliably predict it's effects should be
taken with a grain of salt. :-)


===

Yes, Ben Franklin is lucky to have survived his kite flying
experiment. Right here in SWFL is a good place to do research since
we have so many thunderstorms in the summer. In 15 years we've lost
one tree and a bunch of electronic devices. A neighbor a few blocks
over had their boat struck at the dock. It fried about $25K in
electronics.

I haven't lost a thing here since we hardened the place in the 80s.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 08:23:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2019 6:18 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)



Heh. I learned a long time ago that anyone who claims to understand the
physics of lightning and can reliably predict it's effects should be
taken with a grain of salt. :-)


That was our take on it but we did start to understand what worked.
The gang at State Farm (Winter Haven) came up with a lot of good stuff
that had absolutely zero engineering support. They just tried things
and just built on concepts that showed promise. The "drain" wire came
from them and flew in the face of theory about ground loops. There
were also NEC problems.
We started playing with ferrite beads, building on their bonding
ideas. Our thinking is if we could delay the transient with a choke
long enough for the bond wire to bleed it off we would not have any
real damage. Is it true to engineering concepts, nope, or so I was
told.

I had Holiday Inn asking me why we were the only ones in Florida who
were not losing the registers in the pool bar in thunder storms. We
fixed it with an 8 ga copper wire between the machine frames (inside
and out to the pool) and a fist full of ferrite beads.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 08:23:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 4/28/2019 6:18 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)



Heh. I learned a long time ago that anyone who claims to understand the
physics of lightning and can reliably predict it's effects should be
taken with a grain of salt. :-)


The new, correct saying is, "...with a grain of Mrs. Dash's..."

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 06:18:34 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)

===

Sounds good, and I'm sure we'd all get a bang out of it. Is C4 what
they use in the combat simulation exercise during basic? I was right
next to a ring of sand bags when one of those charges went off. It
certainly gets your attention.

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 9:17:57 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 06:18:34 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)

===

Sounds good, and I'm sure we'd all get a bang out of it. Is C4 what
they use in the combat simulation exercise during basic? I was right
next to a ring of sand bags when one of those charges went off. It
certainly gets your attention.

A cousin of mine gave my dad two artillery simulators years ago. I remember them being a plastic bottle almost the size of a drink can with a tube down the side that had a string you pulled. Then you had so many seconds until it went bang. Wow.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 06:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 9:17:57 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 06:18:34 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)

===

Sounds good, and I'm sure we'd all get a bang out of it. Is C4 what
they use in the combat simulation exercise during basic? I was right
next to a ring of sand bags when one of those charges went off. It
certainly gets your attention.

A cousin of mine gave my dad two artillery simulators years ago. I remember them being a plastic bottle almost the size of a drink can with a tube down the side that had a string you pulled. Then you had so many seconds until it went bang. Wow.

Never saw plastic, but that sounds like them.

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 6:34:58 AM UTC-4, John H wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 06:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 9:17:57 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 06:18:34 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:19:50 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 12:31:07 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:


Why were the MOV to ground, instead of across the lines? Or a bigger value
Varistor to ground?

Because of the twisted pair, the danger isn't usually voltage spike across the pair, but rather the spike potential from the pair to ground. That's what we were trying to protect from. And what protection components on 66 punch blocks from back in the day did as well.

As far as the value, it's a bit of a tightrope. Too low of a value, and it's always firing and causing issues like we experienced. Too big of a value, and you may as well not have any protection on there at all. Even a transformer doesn't protect you, as it has an arc-over value. We thought the 180v parts would be OK, but we didn't realize that the lines would be as dirty as they were.


===

I'm wondering if you couldn't use an isolated op amp with differential
inputs to extract the signal. It would have to be totally isolated
from any ground reference to protect from the high voltage common mode
spikes. It would need a floating power supply of course, with the
output through an opto isolator or some such.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I'm wondering if we could talk about artillery and tanks for a while, with maybe a bit of C-4
discussion thrown in! :)

===

Sounds good, and I'm sure we'd all get a bang out of it. Is C4 what
they use in the combat simulation exercise during basic? I was right
next to a ring of sand bags when one of those charges went off. It
certainly gets your attention.

A cousin of mine gave my dad two artillery simulators years ago. I remember them being a plastic bottle almost the size of a drink can with a tube down the side that had a string you pulled. Then you had so many seconds until it went bang. Wow.

Never saw plastic, but that sounds like them.

That's my faint memory. They very well may have been cardboard.