On 10/12/18 8:10 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 10:00 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:01:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:45 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:40:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on
the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's
jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers.
Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the
overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

===


In my experience the normal ratio of horsepower to KW is 2:1. Anything
less should be considered suspect.


We shouldn't confuse horsepower and watts with horsepower and generator
output in watts.

1 hp = 745.7 wattsÂ*Â* so 8 hp = 5965.6 watts.Â* That's simply the engine
power.

The generator output in watts will obviously be considerably lower.



===

Understood but 1 HP = 745.7 watts is the theoretical maximum.Â* In
reality you need considerably more horsepower to produse a KW because
of electrical and mechanical losses, and because the engine is usually
not being run at the RPM which produces peak power.



Agreed.Â* But again, I think the confusion is the conversion of hp to Kw
which is the engine only.Â* It doesn't consider what the engine is doing
with that Kw and the loses occurred in generating an output.

Good example is the current discussion about microwave ovens.Â* There's
some confusion about the rating of the microwave's output power versus
the power required to produce that output.


I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when I
had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured:

A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this is..
P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that the
answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC current. For
AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase difference
between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the inductances
inside the microwave oven. This phase difference is probably mentioned
on the specifications of the microwave.. Otherwise another specification
maybe mentioned called "MVA".. Power (measured in MVA) = V * I. Using
this , we can directly measure the I.. However, in the absence of either
of the two additional information, it is impossible to fully find I.

The new micro, in the manual, states:

Rated power consumption 1250 watts
Max Microwave output 1200 watts
Frequency 2450 MHz
Rated Current 10.4 A

OF course, those are Chinese measurements.

On 10/12/2018 8:23 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/12/18 8:10 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 10:00 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:01:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:45 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:40:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on
the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's
jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers.
Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the
overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

===


In my experience the normal ratio of horsepower to KW is 2:1. Anything
less should be considered suspect.


We shouldn't confuse horsepower and watts with horsepower and generator
output in watts.

1 hp = 745.7 wattsÂ*Â* so 8 hp = 5965.6 watts.Â* That's simply the engine
power.

The generator output in watts will obviously be considerably lower.



===

Understood but 1 HP = 745.7 watts is the theoretical maximum.Â* In
reality you need considerably more horsepower to produse a KW because
of electrical and mechanical losses, and because the engine is usually
not being run at the RPM which produces peak power.



Agreed.Â* But again, I think the confusion is the conversion of hp to Kw
which is the engine only.Â* It doesn't consider what the engine is doing
with that Kw and the loses occurred in generating an output.

Good example is the current discussion about microwave ovens.Â* There's
some confusion about the rating of the microwave's output power versus
the power required to produce that output.


I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when I
had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured:

A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this is..
P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that the
answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC current. For
AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase difference
between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the inductances
inside the microwave oven. This phase difference is probably mentioned
on the specifications of the microwave.. Otherwise another specification
maybe mentioned called "MVA".. Power (measured in MVA) = V * I. Using
this , we can directly measure the I.. However, in the absence of either
of the two additional information, it is impossible to fully find I.

The new micro, in the manual, states:

Rated power consumptionÂ* 1250 watts
Max Microwave outputÂ*Â*Â*Â* 1200 watts
FrequencyÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 2450 MHz
Rated CurrentÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 10.4 A

OF course, those are Chinese measurements.Â*Â*


Heh. Again, those are the ratings of the microwave output power, mostly
the klystron that actually produces the microwave energy. If taken as
the power required (you can forget about all the phase relationships
of voltage vs current and DC vs AC for this purpose) it would mean that
the microwave is 100% efficient in converting input power to output
power which is impossible.

It may vary somewhat from microwave to microwave and it's age but
a 1200 watt microwave draws considerably more current (power) to
run compared to it's rated output powers. In the case of my relatively
new 1200 watt microwave, the measured current draw is slightly over 16
amperes. Call it 16 amps. 120v * 16 amperes = 1920 watts.

Even the smaller, 750 watt microwave draws about 11 amps to produce
it's rated output of 750 watts. 120v * 11 amperes = 1320 watts.

On 10/12/2018 8:45 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 8:23 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/12/18 8:10 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 10:00 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:01:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 8:45 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:40:55 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on
the bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's
jobs report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar
workers. Pay for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the
overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

===


In my experience the normal ratio of horsepower to KW is 2:1.
Anything
less should be considered suspect.


We shouldn't confuse horsepower and watts with horsepower and
generator
output in watts.

1 hp = 745.7 wattsÂ*Â* so 8 hp = 5965.6 watts.Â* That's simply the engine
power.

The generator output in watts will obviously be considerably lower.



===

Understood but 1 HP = 745.7 watts is the theoretical maximum.Â* In
reality you need considerably more horsepower to produse a KW because
of electrical and mechanical losses, and because the engine is usually
not being run at the RPM which produces peak power.



Agreed.Â* But again, I think the confusion is the conversion of hp to Kw
which is the engine only.Â* It doesn't consider what the engine is doing
with that Kw and the loses occurred in generating an output.

Good example is the current discussion about microwave ovens.
There's some confusion about the rating of the microwave's output
power versus the power required to produce that output.


I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when
I had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured:

A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this
is.. P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that
the answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC
current. For AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase
difference between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the
inductances inside the microwave oven. This phase difference is
probably mentioned on the specifications of the microwave.. Otherwise
another specification maybe mentioned called "MVA".. Power (measured
in MVA) = V * I. Using this , we can directly measure the I.. However,
in the absence of either of the two additional information, it is
impossible to fully find I.

The new micro, in the manual, states:

Rated power consumptionÂ* 1250 watts
Max Microwave outputÂ*Â*Â*Â* 1200 watts
FrequencyÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 2450 MHz
Rated CurrentÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* 10.4 A

OF course, those are Chinese measurements.Â*Â*


Heh.Â* Again, those are the ratings of the microwave output power, mostly
the klystron that actually produces the microwave energy.Â* If taken as
the power required (you can forget about all the phase relationships
of voltage vs current and DC vs AC for this purpose) it would mean that
the microwave is 100% efficient in converting input power to output
power which is impossible.

It may vary somewhat from microwave to microwave and it's age but
a 1200 watt microwave draws considerably more current (power) to
run compared to it's rated output powers.Â* In the case of my relatively
new 1200 watt microwave, the measured current draw is slightly over 16
amperes.Â* Call it 16 amps.Â* 120v * 16 amperes = 1920 watts.

Even the smaller, 750 watt microwave draws about 11 amps to produce
it's rated output of 750 watts.Â* 120v * 11 amperes = 1320 watts.


I need to correct some readings. The current draw of 16 amps was when
I was running the 1200 watt microwave on the generator. I realized it
may have been a higher current reading due to shape factor of the
AC waveform generated by the generator andif there was any voltage droop
due to the generator being loaded close to it's max. So, I just
measured the current it draws when powered by commercial power.

Voltage is 121 vac. Current draw is 14 amps. So, it's using 121v * 14
amperes to produce 1200 watts of microwave power output or 1694 watts
"in" to produce 1200 watts "out".

Very reasonable and believable readings to me.

Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt.

On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote:

Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt.



This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg. We
both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least
in generators.

For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can
afford or want and be happy with it. A whole house generator like
Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun
trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for
them is so rare.

Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more
miles on me) I may spring for a whole house generator. They
are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still
kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than
to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week.

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote:

Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the
larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm
sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt.



This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg. We
both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least
in generators.

For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can
afford or want and be happy with it. A whole house generator like
Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun
trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for
them is so rare.

Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more
miles on me) I may spring for a whole house generator. They
are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still
kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than
to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week.








Here, I use the generator with the camper and figure the only long term
usage I would really need is if we get a bad earthquake. We can live
without AC. Only run mine a few weeks a year. Pool would be a problem.
Luckily earthquakes of that magnitude are a long time between them.
Unlike your hurricanes, and ice storms.

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote:

Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt.



This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg. We
both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least
in generators.

For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can
afford or want and be happy with it. A whole house generator like
Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun
trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for
them is so rare.

Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more
miles on me) I may spring for a whole house generator. They
are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still
kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than
to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week.


Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in
this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original
owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years.

On 10/12/18 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote:

Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt.



This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg. We
both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least
in generators.

For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can
afford or want and be happy with it. A whole house generator like
Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun
trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for
them is so rare.

Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more
miles on me) I may spring for a whole house generator. They
are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still
kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than
to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week.


Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in
this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original
owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years.


We ain't gonna be able to run air conditioning, well pump, two
refrigerators, some lights, garage door opener, some other device, et
cetera, off a $400 generator. We see no reason to "rough it," as you
seem to like to do.

First "accessory" on my list when we build or buy in Hilton Head is a
whole house generator.

True North wrote:
Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt.

That's typical. That's also why you have lost your ass "upgrading" boats.

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 09:24:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


I need to correct some readings. The current draw of 16 amps was when
I was running the 1200 watt microwave on the generator. I realized it
may have been a higher current reading due to shape factor of the
AC waveform generated by the generator andif there was any voltage droop
due to the generator being loaded close to it's max. So, I just
measured the current it draws when powered by commercial power.

Voltage is 121 vac. Current draw is 14 amps. So, it's using 121v * 14
amperes to produce 1200 watts of microwave power output or 1694 watts
"in" to produce 1200 watts "out".

Very reasonable and believable readings to me.

Not sure about a Honda inverter but my Briggs did not have that ugly a
wave form at pretty much full load
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Waveform.jpg