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Another ...
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 10:10:33 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:
The devil is always in the details, and as you try to package everything up in bureaucratic red tape, new details emerge which require another layer of regulations and exceptions. That continues ad infinitum until the real root cause is addressed: We've got to get better at identifying the crazies amongst us and rendering them harmless. I thought it was sadly humorous that in the Annapolis shooting, a *cop* who "investigated" the shooter some years ago determined he was not dangerous. Police, even in an upscale area like Annapolis, aren't trained to make a qualfified determination in regard to behaviors or outright threats that aren't completely overt. That seems to be how it works everywhere. The cops control the buy/don't buy list |
Another ...
On Sun, 01 Jul 2018 12:19:55 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jul 2018 08:17:10 -0400, John H. wrote: On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 05:14:34 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: We have. But one other point .... you corrected me about the difference in Maryland's law regarding minimum age requirements. There's no minimum age to possess an unregulated long gun but you have to be 18 to buy one. So, who is responsible for the 15 year old (or younger) kid in possession of a rifle or shotgun? Parent or adult who gave, or loaned, the kid the gun. I'm thinking this would apply: Maryland law provides that a person “may not store or leave a loaded firearm in a location where the person knew or should have known that an unsupervised child would gain access to the firearm.”1 This section does not apply if: The child’s access is supervised by an individual age 18 or older; The child’s access was obtained as a result of unlawful entry; The firearm is in the possession or control of a law enforcement officer while the officer is engaged in official duties; or The child has a certificate of firearm and hunter safety.2 Interestingly: Maryland also prohibits any person from selling, renting or transferring ammunition for a regulated firearm to a person under age 21, or any ammunition to a person under age 18. Maryland also prohibits the sale or transfer of a rifle or shotgun to a person under age 18. So whoever gave or sold the kid ammo could be in deep ****! http://lawcenter.giffords.org/minimu...s-in-maryland/ Unless the kid had a hunting license. When I was 15, you could buy 12 ga and .22 ammo at 7-11, pretty much the same as getting a slurpee. Couldn't find that exception. The law doesn't prohibit the 'possession' by a kid, just prohibits the transfer. Maryland has some stupid people making stupid laws. |
Another ...
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 15:19:50 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: We have. But one other point .... you corrected me about the difference in Maryland's law regarding minimum age requirements. There's no minimum age to possess an unregulated long gun but you have to be 18 to buy one. So, who is responsible for the 15 year old (or younger) kid in possession of a rifle or shotgun? That basically says the parents are still in charge and can teach the kid about guns and safety. Just not the person turns 18, then buy a gun and learn. Instead of all the registration laws that are being proposed and won’t do anything to decrease the violence, I would not be opposed to a law that says you have to pass a gun safety course. One equivalent to the NRA course I took at 13 to get a hunting license. Which is still required by the state of California to get a hunting license with very few exceptions. We had the same kind of course in the day camp I went to in Maryland. It was NRA sponsored with a NRA instructor, using air rifles. We still treated them like real guns. In fact I never even heard of these "BB gun fights" that people talk about now. If anyone had intentionally shot someone with a BB gun, they would have been beaten by the parents .... back when you could do that sort of stuff. It didn't happen. I don't even remember anyone accidently shot although I do know a few people who got hit by a BB coming straight back at them because they hit something very hard. |
Another ...
On 7/1/2018 10:10 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/30/18 11:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:38:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/30/2018 7:30 PM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/30/2018 3:56 PM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/30/2018 2:39 PM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote: On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote: On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote: Mr. Luddite ... shooting in Annapolis, MD ? .......... This strict gun control laws are really paying off, aren’t they? Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy and out of control.Â* No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it won't surprise me if he turns out to beÂ* a right wing nutcase. Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the guy from photo recognition software. It was reported he did "something" to obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years old, named Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement sources, who apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland. Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation claim in 2012 against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has a minor conviction for "harassment" some years ago. Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of funny, since Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws. They have most of the things people are clamoring for asÂ* "sensible" or "common sense" gun laws * handgun license to buy one * handgun de facto registration *Assault Weapons ban * high cap magazine ban * universal background checks on all sales * red flag law Do they still have that stupid fired case law? As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws. There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun qualification license."Â* Even an idiot like Alex could get one. I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means. There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles are banned if they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off the shelf, and any number of different semi-auto rifles. Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is legal, as is buying them across the state line and bringing them into Maryland. I have no idea what a "red flag" law is. Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of sensible gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had the ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media rantings but they didn't. Thanks for pointing out the futility tho. Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip! I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help but most places already have them. The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause indigestion for many here ... is a required registration of all guns and strict enforcement of the required registration.Â* If for some reason you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not registered to you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that firearm. The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is held responsible for it and it's use.Â* If stolen, sold or legally transferred a report of that event or transfer would be required within 48 hours. Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles. So to some ... go take an antacid. It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me. I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a decent start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All firearms, no exceptions. That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all. They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer within hours. What would registration do? I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms and the attendant paperwork and bureaucracy. The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he robs a 7/11, shoots someone, and leaves his gun on the counter as he departs. Now get off this negative attitude! There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to see implemented and enforced.Â* Similar to some of the Admiralty/Maritime laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should have some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record, regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the crime committed. Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass killings" so therefore it's not helpful,Â* I'd like to make the point that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's heads they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their firearms.Â* I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who got the firearm from his mother who technically owned it. It's more of an issue of reinforcing awareness of the responsibility that goes with having firearms. 1 or 2 new laws certainly are not going to end mass shootings or criminal activities using firearms.Â* What is required is a cultural change that includes those who are so adamant about their 2nd Amendment rights and all the naysayers who find every reason in the world to argue that any further attempt to control the use and ownership of firearms is fruitless.Â* Change has to start somewhere.Â* Better to recognize and accept that there's a serious problem and support those reasonable attempts to at least have some potential affect than to turn a blind eye and wake up someday to find that far more draconian measures have been enacted. I fully support the right to gun ownership for last resort self defense and sporting activities.Â* With that right comes responsibility however. So, someone steals your car, and uses it in a bank robbery. What charges against you will you accept? What does that have to do with anything?Â* The car was stolen.Â* All I said was that a record of transfer for a firearm, be it stolen, lost or sold be kept. My mention of Maritime law was related to the fact that in certain circumstances a former boat owner can be held responsible for damage in the future if it's transfer is not properly documented. There was a case like this years ago when the former owner of a yacht caused significant damage to a coral reef or protected salt water grass or something.Â* The transfer of ownership was apparently not properly done and the former owner got hit with a huge fine. He fought it but still ended up settling for $20K. You are stating the former/or owner of the gun should be held liable for its use if there is no paperwork filed.Â*Â* Guy steals your gun and next day shoots someone.Â*Â* You do not even know there has been a theft.Â*Â* What charges will you accept? I stated that a transfer ... stolen, sold or lost should be reported within 48 hours.Â* As long as that is done, you are not held responsible. If you have a gun stolen from you and you don't even notice it's missing,Â* I don't think you should have had that gun in the first place. That is more to the point of what I am suggesting.Â* More awareness. You are out of town for a week? I don't write the laws.Â* I just come up with ideas.Â* :-) I suppose exceptions would have to exist for situations such as that. === The devil is always in the details, and as you try to package everything up in bureaucratic red tape, new details emerge which require another layer of regulations and exceptions.Â* That continues ad infinitum until the real root cause is addressed:Â* We've got to get better at identifying the crazies amongst us and rendering them harmless. I thought it was sadly humorous that in the Annapolis shooting, a *cop* who "investigated" the shooter some years ago determined he was not dangerous. Police, even in an upscale area like Annapolis, aren't trained to make a qualfified determination in regard to behaviors or outright threats that aren't completely overt. Up here they may not be trained or qualified to psychoanalyze someone however they *are* authorized to remand someone to the court system for possible involuntary commitment for treatment for drug abuse or alcoholism. Not sure it that extends to other behavioral problems. Doctors, cops and family members can petition the court to have someone involuntarily be put in a state run de-tox and rehab program. |
Another ...
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Another ...
On 7/1/2018 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 04:57:26 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/30/2018 9:22 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/30/18 9:18 PM, wrote: On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:56:38 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:36:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: The laws governing the purchase of a shotgun in Florida are stricter than those in Maryland. I bought a shotgun in Florida back when we wintered down there after we found a 4-5 foot rattlesnake coiled up at our front door one day. Like Maryland, they did a quick telephone background check, rang me up but I had to wait several days to pick it up and take it home. Maryland lets you take it home the same day after the quick phone background check. === Are you sure about that?Â* I've never had to wait for anything other than the background check and that only takes a few minutes, if that. Filling out the form takes longer. California used to have no waiting period for long guns, only handguns. Not now, all have 10 day waiting period.Â* I remember buying my Remington 1100 San Francisco Gun Exchange.Â*Â* Yes SF used to have gun stores.Â* And they wrapped it in brown paper and handed it to me.Â*Â* My Ithaca 37 from monkey ward, handed to me with a box of gratis shells. I am trying to remember the last gun I had to wait for. It was certainly a while ago if ever. In Florida a CCW gets you out the door as soon as the NICS check clears and you get the paperwork done. I really have not bought than many guns tho. Nothing like Harry the gun dealer or our resident collector. The last handgun I bought from a store up north was before the GCA68 at Ye Olde Hunter in Alexandria and I think you just paid the man and left with it. It was a half a century ago tho. I may be wrongÂ* ;-) I wonder if anyone still has those records? When I bought my CZ Scorpion some months ago, I walked out of the store after paying for it in no more than 20 minutes. Just the quick NICS check. It's usually five full days of waiting for a handgun. It may be that if you have a LTC or other permit (if required) the waiting period is waived because you have already had a full background check. That said, based on the websites I've looked at, a permit is *not* required, nor is any proof of training to purchase a unregulated long gun in Maryland. Perhaps that's when a waiting period is imposed? Anyway, the point is that the recent Maryland shooter did not require a permit to purchase the shotgun he used and was likely only subject to the quick criminal background check they quickly do by phone. If the court issues he previously had with his beef with the newspaper were dismissed, there was no criminal background. There were never any charges brought by the paper to dismiss. We don't really know the details of the harassment charges but the cop I saw seemed to blow it off as I assume the rest of the LE establishment did. I really haven't been watching much of this because we are keeping the TV off these days. Based on what I read (which obviously may not be accurate) *he* is the one who sued the paper for defamation. It was his lawsuit that was dismissed by the court. |
Another ...
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 12:59:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 7/1/2018 10:10 AM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/30/18 11:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:38:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/30/2018 7:30 PM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/30/2018 3:56 PM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/30/2018 2:39 PM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote: On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote: On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote: Mr. Luddite ... shooting in Annapolis, MD ? .......... This strict gun control laws are really paying off, aren’t they? Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy and out of control.* No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it won't surprise me if he turns out to be* a right wing nutcase. Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the guy from photo recognition software. It was reported he did "something" to obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years old, named Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement sources, who apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland. Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation claim in 2012 against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has a minor conviction for "harassment" some years ago. Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of funny, since Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws. They have most of the things people are clamoring for as* "sensible" or "common sense" gun laws * handgun license to buy one * handgun de facto registration *Assault Weapons ban * high cap magazine ban * universal background checks on all sales * red flag law Do they still have that stupid fired case law? As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws. There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun qualification license."* Even an idiot like Alex could get one. I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means. There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles are banned if they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off the shelf, and any number of different semi-auto rifles. Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is legal, as is buying them across the state line and bringing them into Maryland. I have no idea what a "red flag" law is. Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of sensible gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had the ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media rantings but they didn't. Thanks for pointing out the futility tho. Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip! I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help but most places already have them. The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause indigestion for many here ... is a required registration of all guns and strict enforcement of the required registration.* If for some reason you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not registered to you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that firearm. The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is held responsible for it and it's use.* If stolen, sold or legally transferred a report of that event or transfer would be required within 48 hours. Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles. So to some ... go take an antacid. It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me. I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a decent start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All firearms, no exceptions. That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all. They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer within hours. What would registration do? I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms and the attendant paperwork and bureaucracy. The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he robs a 7/11, shoots someone, and leaves his gun on the counter as he departs. Now get off this negative attitude! There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to see implemented and enforced.* Similar to some of the Admiralty/Maritime laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should have some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record, regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the crime committed. Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass killings" so therefore it's not helpful,* I'd like to make the point that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's heads they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their firearms.* I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who got the firearm from his mother who technically owned it. It's more of an issue of reinforcing awareness of the responsibility that goes with having firearms. 1 or 2 new laws certainly are not going to end mass shootings or criminal activities using firearms.* What is required is a cultural change that includes those who are so adamant about their 2nd Amendment rights and all the naysayers who find every reason in the world to argue that any further attempt to control the use and ownership of firearms is fruitless.* Change has to start somewhere.* Better to recognize and accept that there's a serious problem and support those reasonable attempts to at least have some potential affect than to turn a blind eye and wake up someday to find that far more draconian measures have been enacted. I fully support the right to gun ownership for last resort self defense and sporting activities.* With that right comes responsibility however. So, someone steals your car, and uses it in a bank robbery. What charges against you will you accept? What does that have to do with anything?* The car was stolen.* All I said was that a record of transfer for a firearm, be it stolen, lost or sold be kept. My mention of Maritime law was related to the fact that in certain circumstances a former boat owner can be held responsible for damage in the future if it's transfer is not properly documented. There was a case like this years ago when the former owner of a yacht caused significant damage to a coral reef or protected salt water grass or something.* The transfer of ownership was apparently not properly done and the former owner got hit with a huge fine. He fought it but still ended up settling for $20K. You are stating the former/or owner of the gun should be held liable for its use if there is no paperwork filed.** Guy steals your gun and next day shoots someone.** You do not even know there has been a theft.** What charges will you accept? I stated that a transfer ... stolen, sold or lost should be reported within 48 hours.* As long as that is done, you are not held responsible. If you have a gun stolen from you and you don't even notice it's missing,* I don't think you should have had that gun in the first place. That is more to the point of what I am suggesting.* More awareness. You are out of town for a week? I don't write the laws.* I just come up with ideas.* :-) I suppose exceptions would have to exist for situations such as that. === The devil is always in the details, and as you try to package everything up in bureaucratic red tape, new details emerge which require another layer of regulations and exceptions.* That continues ad infinitum until the real root cause is addressed:* We've got to get better at identifying the crazies amongst us and rendering them harmless. I thought it was sadly humorous that in the Annapolis shooting, a *cop* who "investigated" the shooter some years ago determined he was not dangerous. Police, even in an upscale area like Annapolis, aren't trained to make a qualfified determination in regard to behaviors or outright threats that aren't completely overt. Up here they may not be trained or qualified to psychoanalyze someone however they *are* authorized to remand someone to the court system for possible involuntary commitment for treatment for drug abuse or alcoholism. Not sure it that extends to other behavioral problems. Doctors, cops and family members can petition the court to have someone involuntarily be put in a state run de-tox and rehab program. I wonder where Harry would think the cops *would* be trained to make a 'qualified determination in regard to behaviors or outright threats that aren't completely overt'. Maybe Norway? |
Another ...
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:08:04 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 7/1/2018 12:06 PM, wrote: On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 04:57:26 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 6/30/2018 9:22 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 6/30/18 9:18 PM, wrote: On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:56:38 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:36:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: The laws governing the purchase of a shotgun in Florida are stricter than those in Maryland. I bought a shotgun in Florida back when we wintered down there after we found a 4-5 foot rattlesnake coiled up at our front door one day. Like Maryland, they did a quick telephone background check, rang me up but I had to wait several days to pick it up and take it home. Maryland lets you take it home the same day after the quick phone background check. === Are you sure about that?* I've never had to wait for anything other than the background check and that only takes a few minutes, if that. Filling out the form takes longer. California used to have no waiting period for long guns, only handguns. Not now, all have 10 day waiting period.* I remember buying my Remington 1100 San Francisco Gun Exchange.** Yes SF used to have gun stores.* And they wrapped it in brown paper and handed it to me.** My Ithaca 37 from monkey ward, handed to me with a box of gratis shells. I am trying to remember the last gun I had to wait for. It was certainly a while ago if ever. In Florida a CCW gets you out the door as soon as the NICS check clears and you get the paperwork done. I really have not bought than many guns tho. Nothing like Harry the gun dealer or our resident collector. The last handgun I bought from a store up north was before the GCA68 at Ye Olde Hunter in Alexandria and I think you just paid the man and left with it. It was a half a century ago tho. I may be wrong* ;-) I wonder if anyone still has those records? When I bought my CZ Scorpion some months ago, I walked out of the store after paying for it in no more than 20 minutes. Just the quick NICS check. It's usually five full days of waiting for a handgun. It may be that if you have a LTC or other permit (if required) the waiting period is waived because you have already had a full background check. That said, based on the websites I've looked at, a permit is *not* required, nor is any proof of training to purchase a unregulated long gun in Maryland. Perhaps that's when a waiting period is imposed? Anyway, the point is that the recent Maryland shooter did not require a permit to purchase the shotgun he used and was likely only subject to the quick criminal background check they quickly do by phone. If the court issues he previously had with his beef with the newspaper were dismissed, there was no criminal background. There were never any charges brought by the paper to dismiss. We don't really know the details of the harassment charges but the cop I saw seemed to blow it off as I assume the rest of the LE establishment did. I really haven't been watching much of this because we are keeping the TV off these days. Based on what I read (which obviously may not be accurate) *he* is the one who sued the paper for defamation. It was his lawsuit that was dismissed by the court. Are CNN and MSNBC still blaming Trump? |
Another ...
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 11:45:02 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:
A serious, mandatory gun safety course everywhere would be a good idea. It might not do anything to stop those who are hell bent on violence, but it might cut down on the large number of "accidental" shootings, which would be a step in the right direction. I took a basic safety course and then a concealed carry course out at a nice range near Dulles Airport in Virginia. Both were worthwhile. That used to be what the NRA did ... until gun grabbers forced them to defend the right to have any guns at all. |
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