Another ...
 

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 04:47:42 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

So now, at least, you seem to be admitting this is a societal problem
more than a gun problem. Why not put the same scrutiny on parents that
you want to put on guns?
Why do we need to wait until a kid shoots up his school or more likely
kills himself before we even start to look at what kind of parents and
family structure they have?
We have spent so much time freeing "mom" from her main responsibility
raising her kids to pursue a career and told everyone single parent
household families are fine that we have forgotten kids need parents.




Greg, I have been suggesting all throughout this discussion that we
*have* a societal problem, i.e. "culture" that includes a lax attitude
about guns, the responsibilities that come with having them and the
easy access of getting them. In no way do I think a registration
requirement for gun ownership is going to solve all our problems but
I think you have to start somewhere. Guns have played a role in most
of the mass shootings that have occurred it seems, so if we are going
to try to change our culture it seems like that is a good place to start.


So we admit we have a problem with the society and the solution is to
put everything they might possible cause trouble with on a high shelf.
You are going to run out of room on the shelf and the kids will just
learn how to climb.

Another ...
 

John H. Wrote in message:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 08:57:00 -0400 (EDT), justan wrote:

Keyser Soze Wrote in message:
On 6/30/18 9:00 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/30/2018 8:31 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:38:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 12:10 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 09:30:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze

wrote:

On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite

... shooting in Annapolis, MD ?
..........

This strict gun control laws are really paying off,
aren?t they?



Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy
and out of
control. No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it
won't
surprise me if he turns out to be a right wing nutcase.


Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the
guy from
photo recognition software. It was reported he did
"something" to
obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years
old, named
Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement
sources, who
apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland.

Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation
claim
in 2012
against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has
a minor
conviction for "harassment" some years ago.



Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of
funny,
since
Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws.

They have most of the things people are clamoring for as
"sensible"
or "common sense" gun laws
* handgun license to buy one
* handgun de facto registration
*Assault Weapons ban
* high cap magazine ban
* universal background checks on all sales
* red flag law

Do they still have that stupid fired case law?


As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws.

There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun
qualification
license." Even an idiot like Alex could get one.

I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means.

There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles
are banned if
they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off
the shelf,
and any number of different semi-auto rifles.

Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is
legal, as is
buying them across the state line and bringing them into
Maryland.

I have no idea what a "red flag" law is.

Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of
sensible
gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had
the
ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media
rantings but
they didn't.

Thanks for pointing out the futility tho.


Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip!


I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can
be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns
already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who
owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help
but most
places already have them.

The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause
indigestion for
many here ... is a required registration of all guns
and strict enforcement of the required registration. If for
some reason
you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not
registered to
you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that
firearm.

The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is
held
responsible for it and it's use. If stolen, sold or legally
transferred a report of that event or transfer would be
required within
48 hours.

Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles.

So to some ... go take an antacid.

It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me.







I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a
decent
start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the
registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All
firearms, no exceptions.

That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all.
They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer
within hours. What would registration do?


I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms
and the attendant paperwork and
bureaucracy.

The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he
robs a 7/11, shoots someone, and
leaves his gun on the counter as he departs.

Now get off this negative attitude!



There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to
see implemented and enforced. Similar to some of the
Admiralty/Maritime
laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should
have
some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record,
regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the
crime committed.

Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass
killings" so therefore it's not helpful, I'd like to make the point
that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's
heads
they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their
firearms. I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who got
the firearm from his mother who technically owned it.

Since there was no problem establishing who owned the gun, again, what
would registration accomplish?
It is just one more layer of bureaucracy and no doubt tax.
Laws requiring proper storage of the gun already exist, even in gun
friendly states like Florida but, since Lanza (Sandy Hook) shot his
mom when he took the gun, I doubt the law would have much punishment
available to use against her.



It's kinda fun watching you come up with every reason in the world
to do nothing.


At a certain point I think we have squeezed the gun issue about as
hard as we can. It is time to start trying to just stop the crazy
people who think it is OK to kill a bunch of innocent victims.
I have said many times, guns are for lazy people but it is far from
the only deadly thing out there. Some can be even more devastating.
There are plenty of industrial gasses that are totally unregulated and
have the ability to really do some damage.
How many people would recognize the smell of acetylene and know to run
like hell if they smelled it coming out of the vents in a building?



I guess this is what is called today as "having a conversation".

Nothing is really accomplished but points of view are identified.

Fretwell's point on industrial gases is...absurd.


I'd like to hear your point of view on your bankruptcies,
forclosure, tax evasion etc. Every time the subject is broached
you respond with crickets. What say you.

Please add 'Vietnam service' to the list. I'd like to thank him for his support of the Vietnam war
effort, but he won't tell us who he worked for or what he 'really' did!


He said he worked for a general in the Vietnamese army but he
didn't say whether he was a boot polisher or geisha.
--
x


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Another ...
 

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 04:57:26 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 9:22 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/30/18 9:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:56:38 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:36:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The laws governing the purchase of a shotgun in Florida are stricter
than those in Maryland.

I bought a shotgun in Florida back when we wintered down there after
we found a 4-5 foot rattlesnake coiled up at our front door one day.

Like Maryland, they did a quick telephone background check, rang me up
but I had to wait several days to pick it up and take it home.

Maryland lets you take it home the same day after the quick phone
background check.

===

Are you sure about that?Â* I've never had to wait for anything other
than the background check and that only takes a few minutes, if that.
Filling out the form takes longer.


California used to have no waiting period for long guns, only handguns.
Not now, all have 10 day waiting period.Â* I remember buying my Remington
1100 San Francisco Gun Exchange.Â*Â* Yes SF used to have gun stores.Â* And
they wrapped it in brown paper and handed it to me.Â*Â* My Ithaca 37 from
monkey ward, handed to me with a box of gratis shells.

I am trying to remember the last gun I had to wait for. It was
certainly a while ago if ever. In Florida a CCW gets you out the door
as soon as the NICS check clears and you get the paperwork done.
I really have not bought than many guns tho. Nothing like Harry the
gun dealer or our resident collector.
The last handgun I bought from a store up north was before the GCA68
at Ye Olde Hunter in Alexandria and I think you just paid the man and
left with it. It was a half a century ago tho. I may be wrongÂ* ;-)

I wonder if anyone still has those records?


When I bought my CZ Scorpion some months ago, I walked out of the store
after paying for it in no more than 20 minutes. Just the quick NICS
check. It's usually five full days of waiting for a handgun.


It may be that if you have a LTC or other permit (if required) the
waiting period is waived because you have already had a full background
check.

That said, based on the websites I've looked at, a permit is *not*
required, nor is any proof of training to purchase a unregulated
long gun in Maryland. Perhaps that's when a waiting period is imposed?

Anyway, the point is that the recent Maryland shooter did not require
a permit to purchase the shotgun he used and was likely only subject
to the quick criminal background check they quickly do by phone. If the
court issues he previously had with his beef with the newspaper were
dismissed, there was no criminal background.

There were never any charges brought by the paper to dismiss. We don't
really know the details of the harassment charges but the cop I saw
seemed to blow it off as I assume the rest of the LE establishment
did. I really haven't been watching much of this because we are
keeping the TV off these days.

Another ...
 

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 05:06:49 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 9:26 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 16:20:55 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

If you have a gun stolen from you and you don't even notice it's
missing, I don't think you should have had that gun in the first place.

It might be quite a while before I noticed one missing unless they
made a mess getting to it. Most of mine are all locked away in out of
the way places that are not easy to get to.



Florida is not on the list of states with mandatory reporting of
stolen guns. Here's the list:

States with Mandatory Loss/Theft Reporting Laws

California
Connecticut
Delaware
District of Columbia
Illinois
Maryland (handguns and assault weapons only)
Massachusetts
Michigan (thefts only)
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Rhode Island

That's only 11 states out of the entire USA. Crazy.


There are no laws requiring the loss/theft of most things, not even
cars that are otherwise very strictly regulated.
It is interesting that in some of those states if you reported an
unregistered gun stolen, you would be the one arrested.

Another ...
 

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 05:14:34 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 9:27 PM, John H. wrote:

We've kicked the paperwork requirement to death. We disagree.



We have. But one other point .... you corrected me about the difference
in Maryland's law regarding minimum age requirements. There's no
minimum age to possess an unregulated long gun but you have to be 18
to buy one. So, who is responsible for the 15 year old (or younger) kid
in possession of a rifle or shotgun?

In earlier times, it would be the parents but we don't convey any
responsibilities to parents at all these days.

Another ...
 

On Sun, 01 Jul 2018 08:06:03 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 21:18:19 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:56:38 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:36:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The laws governing the purchase of a shotgun in Florida are stricter
than those in Maryland.

I bought a shotgun in Florida back when we wintered down there after
we found a 4-5 foot rattlesnake coiled up at our front door one day.

Like Maryland, they did a quick telephone background check, rang me up
but I had to wait several days to pick it up and take it home.

Maryland lets you take it home the same day after the quick phone
background check.

===

Are you sure about that? I've never had to wait for anything other
than the background check and that only takes a few minutes, if that.
Filling out the form takes longer.


California used to have no waiting period for long guns, only handguns.
Not now, all have 10 day waiting period. I remember buying my Remington
1100 San Francisco Gun Exchange. Yes SF used to have gun stores. And
they wrapped it in brown paper and handed it to me. My Ithaca 37 from
monkey ward, handed to me with a box of gratis shells.

I am trying to remember the last gun I had to wait for. It was
certainly a while ago if ever. In Florida a CCW gets you out the door
as soon as the NICS check clears and you get the paperwork done.
I really have not bought than many guns tho. Nothing like Harry the
gun dealer or our resident collector.
The last handgun I bought from a store up north was before the GCA68
at Ye Olde Hunter in Alexandria and I think you just paid the man and
left with it. It was a half a century ago tho. I may be wrong ;-)

I wonder if anyone still has those records?


According to this, handguns require three day wait:

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-la...e-law/florida/

That is waived if you have a CCA.
Gifford is not really correct on some of those things.

Another ...
 

On Sun, 01 Jul 2018 08:17:10 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 05:14:34 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:




We have. But one other point .... you corrected me about the difference
in Maryland's law regarding minimum age requirements. There's no
minimum age to possess an unregulated long gun but you have to be 18
to buy one. So, who is responsible for the 15 year old (or younger) kid
in possession of a rifle or shotgun?

Parent or adult who gave, or loaned, the kid the gun. I'm thinking this would apply:

Maryland law provides that a person “may not store or leave a loaded firearm in a location where the
person knew or should have known that an unsupervised child would gain access to the firearm.�1 This
section does not apply if:

The child’s access is supervised by an individual age 18 or older;
The child’s access was obtained as a result of unlawful entry;
The firearm is in the possession or control of a law enforcement officer while the officer is
engaged in official duties; or
The child has a certificate of firearm and hunter safety.2

Interestingly:

Maryland also prohibits any person from selling, renting or transferring ammunition for a regulated
firearm to a person under age 21, or any ammunition to a person under age 18. Maryland also
prohibits the sale or transfer of a rifle or shotgun to a person under age 18.

So whoever gave or sold the kid ammo could be in deep ****!

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/minimu...s-in-maryland/

Unless the kid had a hunting license.
When I was 15, you could buy 12 ga and .22 ammo at 7-11, pretty much
the same as getting a slurpee.

Another ...
 

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 12:03:20 -0400 (EDT), justan wrote:

John H. Wrote in message:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 08:57:00 -0400 (EDT), justan wrote:

Keyser Soze Wrote in message:
On 6/30/18 9:00 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/30/2018 8:31 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:38:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 12:10 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 09:30:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze

wrote:

On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite

... shooting in Annapolis, MD ?
..........

This strict gun control laws are really paying off,
aren?t they?



Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy
and out of
control. No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it
won't
surprise me if he turns out to be a right wing nutcase.


Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the
guy from
photo recognition software. It was reported he did
"something" to
obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years
old, named
Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement
sources, who
apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland.

Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation
claim
in 2012
against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has
a minor
conviction for "harassment" some years ago.



Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of
funny,
since
Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws.

They have most of the things people are clamoring for as
"sensible"
or "common sense" gun laws
* handgun license to buy one
* handgun de facto registration
*Assault Weapons ban
* high cap magazine ban
* universal background checks on all sales
* red flag law

Do they still have that stupid fired case law?


As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws.

There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun
qualification
license." Even an idiot like Alex could get one.

I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means.

There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles
are banned if
they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off
the shelf,
and any number of different semi-auto rifles.

Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is
legal, as is
buying them across the state line and bringing them into
Maryland.

I have no idea what a "red flag" law is.

Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of
sensible
gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had
the
ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media
rantings but
they didn't.

Thanks for pointing out the futility tho.


Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip!


I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can
be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns
already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who
owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help
but most
places already have them.

The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause
indigestion for
many here ... is a required registration of all guns
and strict enforcement of the required registration. If for
some reason
you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not
registered to
you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that
firearm.

The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is
held
responsible for it and it's use. If stolen, sold or legally
transferred a report of that event or transfer would be
required within
48 hours.

Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles.

So to some ... go take an antacid.

It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me.







I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a
decent
start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the
registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All
firearms, no exceptions.

That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all.
They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer
within hours. What would registration do?


I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms
and the attendant paperwork and
bureaucracy.

The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he
robs a 7/11, shoots someone, and
leaves his gun on the counter as he departs.

Now get off this negative attitude!



There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to
see implemented and enforced. Similar to some of the
Admiralty/Maritime
laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should
have
some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record,
regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the
crime committed.

Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass
killings" so therefore it's not helpful, I'd like to make the point
that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's
heads
they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their
firearms. I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who got
the firearm from his mother who technically owned it.

Since there was no problem establishing who owned the gun, again, what
would registration accomplish?
It is just one more layer of bureaucracy and no doubt tax.
Laws requiring proper storage of the gun already exist, even in gun
friendly states like Florida but, since Lanza (Sandy Hook) shot his
mom when he took the gun, I doubt the law would have much punishment
available to use against her.



It's kinda fun watching you come up with every reason in the world
to do nothing.


At a certain point I think we have squeezed the gun issue about as
hard as we can. It is time to start trying to just stop the crazy
people who think it is OK to kill a bunch of innocent victims.
I have said many times, guns are for lazy people but it is far from
the only deadly thing out there. Some can be even more devastating.
There are plenty of industrial gasses that are totally unregulated and
have the ability to really do some damage.
How many people would recognize the smell of acetylene and know to run
like hell if they smelled it coming out of the vents in a building?



I guess this is what is called today as "having a conversation".

Nothing is really accomplished but points of view are identified.

Fretwell's point on industrial gases is...absurd.


I'd like to hear your point of view on your bankruptcies,
forclosure, tax evasion etc. Every time the subject is broached
you respond with crickets. What say you.

Please add 'Vietnam service' to the list. I'd like to thank him for his support of the Vietnam war
effort, but he won't tell us who he worked for or what he 'really' did!


He said he worked for a general in the Vietnamese army but he
didn't say whether he was a boot polisher or geisha.

Not many geishas in Vietnam. Most likely a 'boom-boom' girl.

Another ...
 

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 09:01:23 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:

Even for police officers, though, the same handgun waiting period is
imposed for handgun sales, I believe. Some years ago, I had a nice Ruger
revolver, but I wanted the S&W version. So I sold my Ruger to a police
officer for his personal use. As such, he was able to use a local state
police barracks armorer at the barracks as his FFL. We both drove to the
barracks, went inside with the pistol in its box, handed it over to a
trooper, and the buyer filled out the paperwork. He had to wait the same
period of time as I would have waited, were I the purchaser.

Sounds pretty silly to me.

Another ...
 

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 09:13:17 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:

On 7/1/18 8:39 AM, justan wrote:
Keyser Soze Wrote in message:
On 6/30/18 9:18 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:56:38 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:36:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The laws governing the purchase of a shotgun in Florida are stricter
than those in Maryland.

I bought a shotgun in Florida back when we wintered down there after
we found a 4-5 foot rattlesnake coiled up at our front door one day.

Like Maryland, they did a quick telephone background check, rang me up
but I had to wait several days to pick it up and take it home.

Maryland lets you take it home the same day after the quick phone
background check.

===

Are you sure about that? I've never had to wait for anything other
than the background check and that only takes a few minutes, if that.
Filling out the form takes longer.


California used to have no waiting period for long guns, only handguns.
Not now, all have 10 day waiting period. I remember buying my Remington
1100 San Francisco Gun Exchange. Yes SF used to have gun stores. And
they wrapped it in brown paper and handed it to me. My Ithaca 37 from
monkey ward, handed to me with a box of gratis shells.

I am trying to remember the last gun I had to wait for. It was
certainly a while ago if ever. In Florida a CCW gets you out the door
as soon as the NICS check clears and you get the paperwork done.
I really have not bought than many guns tho. Nothing like Harry the
gun dealer or our resident collector.
The last handgun I bought from a store up north was before the GCA68
at Ye Olde Hunter in Alexandria and I think you just paid the man and
left with it. It was a half a century ago tho. I may be wrong ;-)

I wonder if anyone still has those records?


When I bought my CZ Scorpion some months ago, I walked out of the store
after paying for it in no more than 20 minutes. Just the quick NICS
check. It's usually five full days of waiting for a handgun.


What! No back story. Are you sure that rifle wasn't owned by
Buffalo Bill or one of the former presidents you are chums
with?


Scarlett Johansson rubbed it across her naked breasts when she found out
I was going to buy it.

Now it has cocaine residue on it. ;-)