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Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:34:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/25/2018 3:25 PM, John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:41:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/25/18 1:33 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 12:55 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:05:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:43:52 -0500, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:46:21 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:03:42 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/24/18 12:03 PM, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:17:42 -0500, John H. wrote: I could see making an exception for an individual who has a DD 214 with the honorable discharge I would grant that exception to anything that has an age limit on it. Charles Whitman was honorably discharged from the Marines. Lee Harvey Oswald received a hardship discharge from the Marines. Timothy McVeigh was honorably discharged from the Army. Obviously, an honorable discharge wouldn't catch all the deviants. But how many of them used the weapons under discussion to shoot kids in the schools under discussion? Well Whitman used a rifle to shoot students but it was a bolt action, as was Oswald's., McVeigh didn't use a gun at all and racked up a much higher death count. I am not really sure what point they are making in an AR 15 rant. It really sounds more like my argument that banning ARs is pretty meaningless. Ask Harry. It was his rant against an honorable discharge. I tend to ignore his anti military rants. I understand that if he had served, that would be all we heard about. It's obvious Harry knows very little about the military other than what he's been told or heard.* He has already proven how easily he is influenced by others.* He parrots daily the latest DNC talking points. My point was that a honorable discharge shouldn't by itself be the qualifier for obtaining a firearm. The discharge in the cases I cited was not an indicator of decent behavior going forward. An age qualifier of 21 plus a good quality background check are more significant. I've lost what the original proposition was but I don't disagree with you. I had proposed a higher age requirement, at least 21, unless the individual had an honorary discharge DD 214. I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
John H. wrote:
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:34:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 3:25 PM, John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:41:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/25/18 1:33 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 12:55 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:05:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:43:52 -0500, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:46:21 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:03:42 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/24/18 12:03 PM, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:17:42 -0500, John H. wrote: I could see making an exception for an individual who has a DD 214 with the honorable discharge I would grant that exception to anything that has an age limit on it. Charles Whitman was honorably discharged from the Marines. Lee Harvey Oswald received a hardship discharge from the Marines. Timothy McVeigh was honorably discharged from the Army. Obviously, an honorable discharge wouldn't catch all the deviants. But how many of them used the weapons under discussion to shoot kids in the schools under discussion? Well Whitman used a rifle to shoot students but it was a bolt action, as was Oswald's., McVeigh didn't use a gun at all and racked up a much higher death count. I am not really sure what point they are making in an AR 15 rant. It really sounds more like my argument that banning ARs is pretty meaningless. Ask Harry. It was his rant against an honorable discharge. I tend to ignore his anti military rants. I understand that if he had served, that would be all we heard about. It's obvious Harry knows very little about the military other than what he's been told or heard.Â* He has already proven how easily he is influenced by others.Â* He parrots daily the latest DNC talking points. My point was that a honorable discharge shouldn't by itself be the qualifier for obtaining a firearm. The discharge in the cases I cited was not an indicator of decent behavior going forward. An age qualifier of 21 plus a good quality background check are more significant. I've lost what the original proposition was but I don't disagree with you. I had proposed a higher age requirement, at least 21, unless the individual had an honorary discharge DD 214. I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
John H. wrote:
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:34:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 3:25 PM, John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:41:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/25/18 1:33 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 12:55 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:05:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:43:52 -0500, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:46:21 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:03:42 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/24/18 12:03 PM, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:17:42 -0500, John H. wrote: I could see making an exception for an individual who has a DD 214 with the honorable discharge I would grant that exception to anything that has an age limit on it. Charles Whitman was honorably discharged from the Marines. Lee Harvey Oswald received a hardship discharge from the Marines. Timothy McVeigh was honorably discharged from the Army. Obviously, an honorable discharge wouldn't catch all the deviants. But how many of them used the weapons under discussion to shoot kids in the schools under discussion? Well Whitman used a rifle to shoot students but it was a bolt action, as was Oswald's., McVeigh didn't use a gun at all and racked up a much higher death count. I am not really sure what point they are making in an AR 15 rant. It really sounds more like my argument that banning ARs is pretty meaningless. Ask Harry. It was his rant against an honorable discharge. I tend to ignore his anti military rants. I understand that if he had served, that would be all we heard about. It's obvious Harry knows very little about the military other than what he's been told or heard.Â* He has already proven how easily he is influenced by others.Â* He parrots daily the latest DNC talking points. My point was that a honorable discharge shouldn't by itself be the qualifier for obtaining a firearm. The discharge in the cases I cited was not an indicator of decent behavior going forward. An age qualifier of 21 plus a good quality background check are more significant. I've lost what the original proposition was but I don't disagree with you. I had proposed a higher age requirement, at least 21, unless the individual had an honorary discharge DD 214. I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. We lost one in basic. Medical discharge. He told them about a bad shoulder and they still enlisted him. Doing a push-up shoulder separation. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 13:42:56 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/25/2018 1:20 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 11:14:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 10:58 AM, Keyser Soze wrote: Today's Navy includes more extensive training in firearms evenÂ* in basic training. How extensive? Certainly not as extensive as the Marines or Army recruits but more than I experienced back in 1968. Navy recruits today must qualify with a 9mm (Glock) and a shotgun, although according to my son and son-in-law they also used a M4. https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/navy-weapons-qualification-course.html All of the Coasties I see on the water are carrying a sidearm and you have to qualify to do that. My grandson recently passed his qualifications for boarding team member. The qualification process is more than just being issued a Glock with authorization to carry it. It's more like attending a police academy, learning all the pertinent laws and rights of those boarded. He's currently underway on his cutter doing drug intervention patrols. Just left GTMO and a liberty call in San Juan. Should be back home in April sometime. Looking forward to hearing of his adventures. Yeah those guys doing drug interdiction are hard core. I have dealt with both. The guys who ride along with the sheriff on holiday patrols (BUI and life jackets) wear a side arm. The night the guys in the RIB rolled up on us in the dark they had 1 guy with an M16, a guy with a shotgun, a guy on the M60 and the coxswain with a sidearm. They started feeling pretty silly when it was two 60 year old guys, on the "Butt Ugly" with a little black dog. They tried to say we couldn't have come from where we said we did but then decided they were done with us after a wet Dachshund mix had boarded them and was "marking" all of their stuff. They threw the dog back on my boat and said we could go. They followed us for a while until we disappeared into that place we could not have come from. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:08:54 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote: On 2/25/18 1:33 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 12:55 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:05:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:43:52 -0500, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:46:21 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:03:42 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/24/18 12:03 PM, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:17:42 -0500, John H. wrote: I could see making an exception for an individual who has a DD 214 with the honorable discharge I would grant that exception to anything that has an age limit on it. Charles Whitman was honorably discharged from the Marines. Lee Harvey Oswald received a hardship discharge from the Marines. Timothy McVeigh was honorably discharged from the Army. Obviously, an honorable discharge wouldn't catch all the deviants. But how many of them used the weapons under discussion to shoot kids in the schools under discussion? Well Whitman used a rifle to shoot students but it was a bolt action, as was Oswald's., McVeigh didn't use a gun at all and racked up a much higher death count. I am not really sure what point they are making in an AR 15 rant. It really sounds more like my argument that banning ARs is pretty meaningless. Ask Harry. It was his rant against an honorable discharge. I tend to ignore his anti military rants. I understand that if he had served, that would be all we heard about. It's obvious Harry knows very little about the military other than what he's been told or heard.Â* He has already proven how easily he is influenced by others.Â* He parrots daily the latest DNC talking points. My point was that a honorable discharge shouldn't by itself be the qualifier for obtaining a firearm. The discharge in the cases I cited was not an indicator of decent behavior going forward. An age qualifier of 21 plus a good quality background check are more significant. I think the honorable discharge was to avoid the age limitation, not the background check, although I doubt any of the ones you mention could not buy a gun in Md or Ma based on what we knew about them before their crime was committed. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:34:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: I had proposed a higher age requirement, at least 21, unless the individual had an honorary discharge DD 214. I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Anyone who signs up at 18 for a 2 year hitch (and 4 inactive). You get your DD214 after the 2 years. I got mine after a year (+5 active reserve) and I was only 19. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I transferred out of my reserve unit 5 days before the general volunteered the wing for active duty with the Pueblo crisis. He got another star and all the rest of the unit pretty much got screwed. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 05:24:36 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I transferred out of my reserve unit 5 days before the general volunteered the wing for active duty with the Pueblo crisis. He got another star and all the rest of the unit pretty much got screwed. We had a Lt Cmdr who resigned his commission in the USCGR because he had decided the Coast Guard was going to call up a unit and the unit they were most likely to call was the ORTAUG ("ship augmentation" deck apes) in Washington DC. In the end he screwed up. They never called up any units It was really silly anyway. The only CG units in Vietnam were river patrol boats and pretty much all of the reserves were there to provide manpower on Navy vessels. There was no shortage of those Navy guys and they would probably have wanted the guys in the ORTEL anyway (Electronic rates). They had more volunteers for the river boats than slots so that was not going to be a thing. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
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Kids Say the Darndest Things
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Kids Say the Darndest Things
On 2/26/2018 6:44 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 1:26 AM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 05:24:36 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.Â* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.Â*Â* Join the navy reserves while in high school.Â*Â* When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.Â*Â* Then discharged.Â* At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I transferred out of my reserve unit 5 days before the general volunteered the wing for active duty with the Pueblo crisis.Â*Â* He got another star and all the rest of the unit pretty much got screwed. We had a Lt Cmdr who resigned his commission in the USCGR because he had decided the Coast Guard was going to call up a unit and the unit they were most likely to call was the ORTAUG ("ship augmentation" deck apes) in Washington DC. In the end he screwed up. They never called up any units It was really silly anyway. The only CG units in Vietnam were river patrol boats and pretty much all of the reserves were there to provide manpower on Navy vessels. There was no shortage of those Navy guys and they would probably have wanted the guys in the ORTEL anyway (Electronic rates). They had more volunteers for the river boats than slots so that was not going to be a thing. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the only rec.boats poster here who might have been shot at by elements of the various North Vietnamese ground forces was Herring, and, in his case, deservedly so. :) The rest of you fellas didn't see that sort of combat, correct? That includes you, Luddite, Bilious Bill, FlaJim, W'hine, et cetera. Actually, my feeling is that it's none of your business but: For me only a short, six week experience in coastal areas off Vietnam early in my Navy adventure. Left due to an injury that although minor (and not fully documented as to how), still required medical attention not readily available and was eventually transferred back to the states. No Harry. It was not "self inflicted". :-) Certainly not a "combat vet" nor do I consider myself a Vietnam Vet even though my service records document Vietnam service. Compared to others I never felt I was there long enough nor did I experience what others (like my Hospital Corpsman buddy) experienced. He disagrees but I have too much respect for those who had to spend full tours there. I never wanted to be thought of as another John Kerry so to me it was no big deal. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On 2/26/2018 5:27 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/25/2018 9:44 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.Â* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.Â*Â* Join the navy reserves while in high school.Â*Â* When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.Â*Â* Then discharged.Â* At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I did just short of 9 years active and was supposed to be discharged in April.Â* Started my short-timer's calendar and also sending out resumes for jobs.Â* Then, a few weeks before D-day, I was informed that my enlistment had been extended for an additional 2 months.Â* I went a little bonkers because my understanding had been that after 8 years of active duty, your required eligibility for military service was complete.Â* Anyway, I lost the argument but the CO of the command (this was in Annapolis, MD) who was also a short-timer told me I could go home for the last few weeks and just call in every morning for muster.Â* I was processed for discharge and my discharge papers would be mailed to me. He also said he'd try to find out what the extension was all about because itÂ* wasn't like I held a critical billet at the command and they didn't need my replacement.Â* The Navy was beginning to decommission the commandÂ* and were already mothballing equipment. The CO found out that (unknown to me) I had been selected to attend a 5 week prep schoolÂ* called "Officer Development School (ODS)" which would then lead to a direct commission to Warrant as an LDO (limited duty officer).Â* LDO's are not flag officers and can never be a CO of a ship or anything.Â* They usually serve in at commands that require their educational and technical specialties. Anyway, I didn't opt for it.Â* The extension was to allow time for the orders and the school schedule.Â* Only problem was they neglected to tell me about it in the paperwork shuffle.Â* My only guess is that the Navy had invested a lot of schools in me during my enlistment plus I had been taking courses at local colleges and on-line and was not that far from meeting a degree requirement. My DD-214 includes the following statement:Â* "Member's service extended by two months.Â* Extension was at the request and for the convenience of the government". I should correct something. I didn't do "on-line" courses. I did traditional correspondents courses on the ships when we were deployed. On-line courses didn't exist back then. :-) Also, (and unknown to me at the time) I had been advanced in rank to E-6 however the advancement notices had not been published. E-6 and above was a per-requisite for the LDO program and the 2 month extension allowed it to become official. I wouldn't have done it anyway. Why would a more senior enlisted want to start all over again as a very junior officer? No thanks. Besides, I had pretty much had enough of the Navy by that time. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:
John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:34:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 3:25 PM, John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:41:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/25/18 1:33 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 12:55 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:05:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:43:52 -0500, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:46:21 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:03:42 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/24/18 12:03 PM, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:17:42 -0500, John H. wrote: I could see making an exception for an individual who has a DD 214 with the honorable discharge I would grant that exception to anything that has an age limit on it. Charles Whitman was honorably discharged from the Marines. Lee Harvey Oswald received a hardship discharge from the Marines. Timothy McVeigh was honorably discharged from the Army. Obviously, an honorable discharge wouldn't catch all the deviants. But how many of them used the weapons under discussion to shoot kids in the schools under discussion? Well Whitman used a rifle to shoot students but it was a bolt action, as was Oswald's., McVeigh didn't use a gun at all and racked up a much higher death count. I am not really sure what point they are making in an AR 15 rant. It really sounds more like my argument that banning ARs is pretty meaningless. Ask Harry. It was his rant against an honorable discharge. I tend to ignore his anti military rants. I understand that if he had served, that would be all we heard about. It's obvious Harry knows very little about the military other than what he's been told or heard.* He has already proven how easily he is influenced by others.* He parrots daily the latest DNC talking points. My point was that a honorable discharge shouldn't by itself be the qualifier for obtaining a firearm. The discharge in the cases I cited was not an indicator of decent behavior going forward. An age qualifier of 21 plus a good quality background check are more significant. I've lost what the original proposition was but I don't disagree with you. I had proposed a higher age requirement, at least 21, unless the individual had an honorary discharge DD 214. I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. I don't think the Army ever had anything like that. The least time for a voluntary enlistment was three years. For a draftee, the time was two years. But draftees weren't drafted at 18 either. I was 21 when I got my notice. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Monday, 26 February 2018 08:31:31 UTC-5, John H wrote:
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:34:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 3:25 PM, John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:41:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/25/18 1:33 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 12:55 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:05:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:43:52 -0500, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:46:21 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:03:42 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/24/18 12:03 PM, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:17:42 -0500, John H. wrote: I could see making an exception for an individual who has a DD 214 with the honorable discharge I would grant that exception to anything that has an age limit on it. Charles Whitman was honorably discharged from the Marines. Lee Harvey Oswald received a hardship discharge from the Marines. Timothy McVeigh was honorably discharged from the Army. Obviously, an honorable discharge wouldn't catch all the deviants. But how many of them used the weapons under discussion to shoot kids in the schools under discussion? Well Whitman used a rifle to shoot students but it was a bolt action, as was Oswald's., McVeigh didn't use a gun at all and racked up a much higher death count. I am not really sure what point they are making in an AR 15 rant. It really sounds more like my argument that banning ARs is pretty meaningless. Ask Harry. It was his rant against an honorable discharge. I tend to ignore his anti military rants. I understand that if he had served, that would be all we heard about. It's obvious Harry knows very little about the military other than what he's been told or heard.Â* He has already proven how easily he is influenced by others.Â* He parrots daily the latest DNC talking points. My point was that a honorable discharge shouldn't by itself be the qualifier for obtaining a firearm. The discharge in the cases I cited was not an indicator of decent behavior going forward. An age qualifier of 21 plus a good quality background check are more significant. I've lost what the original proposition was but I don't disagree with you. I had proposed a higher age requirement, at least 21, unless the individual had an honorary discharge DD 214. I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. I don't think the Army ever had anything like that. The least time for a voluntary enlistment was three years. For a draftee, the time was two years. But draftees weren't drafted at 18 either. I was 21 when I got my notice. I stand corrected: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...grow-the-army/ Something new, at least since I got out. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
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Kids Say the Darndest Things
On 2/26/2018 8:39 AM, John H wrote:
On Monday, 26 February 2018 08:31:31 UTC-5, John H wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:34:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 3:25 PM, John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:41:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/25/18 1:33 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 12:55 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:05:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:43:52 -0500, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:46:21 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:03:42 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/24/18 12:03 PM, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:17:42 -0500, John H. wrote: I could see making an exception for an individual who has a DD 214 with the honorable discharge I would grant that exception to anything that has an age limit on it. Charles Whitman was honorably discharged from the Marines. Lee Harvey Oswald received a hardship discharge from the Marines. Timothy McVeigh was honorably discharged from the Army. Obviously, an honorable discharge wouldn't catch all the deviants. But how many of them used the weapons under discussion to shoot kids in the schools under discussion? Well Whitman used a rifle to shoot students but it was a bolt action, as was Oswald's., McVeigh didn't use a gun at all and racked up a much higher death count. I am not really sure what point they are making in an AR 15 rant. It really sounds more like my argument that banning ARs is pretty meaningless. Ask Harry. It was his rant against an honorable discharge. I tend to ignore his anti military rants. I understand that if he had served, that would be all we heard about. It's obvious Harry knows very little about the military other than what he's been told or heard.Â* He has already proven how easily he is influenced by others.Â* He parrots daily the latest DNC talking points. My point was that a honorable discharge shouldn't by itself be the qualifier for obtaining a firearm. The discharge in the cases I cited was not an indicator of decent behavior going forward. An age qualifier of 21 plus a good quality background check are more significant. I've lost what the original proposition was but I don't disagree with you. I had proposed a higher age requirement, at least 21, unless the individual had an honorary discharge DD 214. I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. I don't think the Army ever had anything like that. The least time for a voluntary enlistment was three years. For a draftee, the time was two years. But draftees weren't drafted at 18 either. I was 21 when I got my notice. I stand corrected: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...grow-the-army/ Something new, at least since I got out. All branches of the military are having difficulty in recruitment of new, qualified candidates. The main problem is that over 70 percent of today's youth are *not* qualified or do not meet the minimum standards for military service. Sad. https://news.usni.org/2017/10/12/panel-pentagon-facing-future-recruiting-challenge-due-lack-candidates |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:47:18 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/26/2018 8:39 AM, John H wrote: On Monday, 26 February 2018 08:31:31 UTC-5, John H wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:34:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 3:25 PM, John H. wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:41:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/25/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/25/18 1:33 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 12:55 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:05:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:43:52 -0500, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:46:21 -0500, John H. wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:03:42 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/24/18 12:03 PM, wrote: On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 07:17:42 -0500, John H. wrote: I could see making an exception for an individual who has a DD 214 with the honorable discharge I would grant that exception to anything that has an age limit on it. Charles Whitman was honorably discharged from the Marines. Lee Harvey Oswald received a hardship discharge from the Marines. Timothy McVeigh was honorably discharged from the Army. Obviously, an honorable discharge wouldn't catch all the deviants. But how many of them used the weapons under discussion to shoot kids in the schools under discussion? Well Whitman used a rifle to shoot students but it was a bolt action, as was Oswald's., McVeigh didn't use a gun at all and racked up a much higher death count. I am not really sure what point they are making in an AR 15 rant. It really sounds more like my argument that banning ARs is pretty meaningless. Ask Harry. It was his rant against an honorable discharge. I tend to ignore his anti military rants. I understand that if he had served, that would be all we heard about. It's obvious Harry knows very little about the military other than what he's been told or heard.* He has already proven how easily he is influenced by others.* He parrots daily the latest DNC talking points. My point was that a honorable discharge shouldn't by itself be the qualifier for obtaining a firearm. The discharge in the cases I cited was not an indicator of decent behavior going forward. An age qualifier of 21 plus a good quality background check are more significant. I've lost what the original proposition was but I don't disagree with you. I had proposed a higher age requirement, at least 21, unless the individual had an honorary discharge DD 214. I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. I don't think the Army ever had anything like that. The least time for a voluntary enlistment was three years. For a draftee, the time was two years. But draftees weren't drafted at 18 either. I was 21 when I got my notice. I stand corrected: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...grow-the-army/ Something new, at least since I got out. All branches of the military are having difficulty in recruitment of new, qualified candidates. The main problem is that over 70 percent of today's youth are *not* qualified or do not meet the minimum standards for military service. Sad. https://news.usni.org/2017/10/12/panel-pentagon-facing-future-recruiting-challenge-due-lack-candidates Saw that last time you mentioned it. Damn shame. But, I look at the 8-11 year-olds in the neighborhood, and about 90% of them are very overweight. And their parents buy them electric scooters. Unreal. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 06:44:09 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote: On 2/26/18 1:26 AM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 05:24:36 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point. Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I transferred out of my reserve unit 5 days before the general volunteered the wing for active duty with the Pueblo crisis. He got another star and all the rest of the unit pretty much got screwed. We had a Lt Cmdr who resigned his commission in the USCGR because he had decided the Coast Guard was going to call up a unit and the unit they were most likely to call was the ORTAUG ("ship augmentation" deck apes) in Washington DC. In the end he screwed up. They never called up any units It was really silly anyway. The only CG units in Vietnam were river patrol boats and pretty much all of the reserves were there to provide manpower on Navy vessels. There was no shortage of those Navy guys and they would probably have wanted the guys in the ORTEL anyway (Electronic rates). They had more volunteers for the river boats than slots so that was not going to be a thing. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the only rec.boats poster here who might have been shot at by elements of the various North Vietnamese ground forces was Herring, and, in his case, deservedly so. :) The rest of you fellas didn't see that sort of combat, correct? That includes you, Luddite, Bilious Bill, FlaJim, W'hine, et cetera. The reality is the vast majority of people in the military 65-74, were not in the grass, just as the majority of Korea or even WWII veterans were not actually in combat. What's your point? |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 07:40:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 5:27 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 9:44 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.Â* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.Â*Â* Join the navy reserves while in high school.Â*Â* When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.Â*Â* Then discharged.Â* At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I did just short of 9 years active and was supposed to be discharged in April.Â* Started my short-timer's calendar and also sending out resumes for jobs.Â* Then, a few weeks before D-day, I was informed that my enlistment had been extended for an additional 2 months.Â* I went a little bonkers because my understanding had been that after 8 years of active duty, your required eligibility for military service was complete.Â* Anyway, I lost the argument but the CO of the command (this was in Annapolis, MD) who was also a short-timer told me I could go home for the last few weeks and just call in every morning for muster.Â* I was processed for discharge and my discharge papers would be mailed to me. He also said he'd try to find out what the extension was all about because itÂ* wasn't like I held a critical billet at the command and they didn't need my replacement.Â* The Navy was beginning to decommission the commandÂ* and were already mothballing equipment. The CO found out that (unknown to me) I had been selected to attend a 5 week prep schoolÂ* called "Officer Development School (ODS)" which would then lead to a direct commission to Warrant as an LDO (limited duty officer).Â* LDO's are not flag officers and can never be a CO of a ship or anything.Â* They usually serve in at commands that require their educational and technical specialties. Anyway, I didn't opt for it.Â* The extension was to allow time for the orders and the school schedule.Â* Only problem was they neglected to tell me about it in the paperwork shuffle.Â* My only guess is that the Navy had invested a lot of schools in me during my enlistment plus I had been taking courses at local colleges and on-line and was not that far from meeting a degree requirement. My DD-214 includes the following statement:Â* "Member's service extended by two months.Â* Extension was at the request and for the convenience of the government". I should correct something. I didn't do "on-line" courses. I did traditional correspondents courses on the ships when we were deployed. On-line courses didn't exist back then. :-) Also, (and unknown to me at the time) I had been advanced in rank to E-6 however the advancement notices had not been published. E-6 and above was a per-requisite for the LDO program and the 2 month extension allowed it to become official. I wouldn't have done it anyway. Why would a more senior enlisted want to start all over again as a very junior officer? No thanks. Besides, I had pretty much had enough of the Navy by that time. I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:30 -0500, John H.
wrote: Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. I don't think the Army ever had anything like that. The least time for a voluntary enlistment was three years. For a draftee, the time was two years. But draftees weren't drafted at 18 either. I was 21 when I got my notice. I know some 18-19 year old draftees circa 65-66. Did you have a deferment? |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 07:40:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 5:27 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 9:44 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.Â* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.Â*Â* Join the navy reserves while in high school.Â*Â* When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.Â*Â* Then discharged.Â* At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I did just short of 9 years active and was supposed to be discharged in April.Â* Started my short-timer's calendar and also sending out resumes for jobs.Â* Then, a few weeks before D-day, I was informed that my enlistment had been extended for an additional 2 months.Â* I went a little bonkers because my understanding had been that after 8 years of active duty, your required eligibility for military service was complete.Â* Anyway, I lost the argument but the CO of the command (this was in Annapolis, MD) who was also a short-timer told me I could go home for the last few weeks and just call in every morning for muster.Â* I was processed for discharge and my discharge papers would be mailed to me. He also said he'd try to find out what the extension was all about because itÂ* wasn't like I held a critical billet at the command and they didn't need my replacement.Â* The Navy was beginning to decommission the commandÂ* and were already mothballing equipment. The CO found out that (unknown to me) I had been selected to attend a 5 week prep schoolÂ* called "Officer Development School (ODS)" which would then lead to a direct commission to Warrant as an LDO (limited duty officer).Â* LDO's are not flag officers and can never be a CO of a ship or anything.Â* They usually serve in at commands that require their educational and technical specialties. Anyway, I didn't opt for it.Â* The extension was to allow time for the orders and the school schedule.Â* Only problem was they neglected to tell me about it in the paperwork shuffle.Â* My only guess is that the Navy had invested a lot of schools in me during my enlistment plus I had been taking courses at local colleges and on-line and was not that far from meeting a degree requirement. My DD-214 includes the following statement:Â* "Member's service extended by two months.Â* Extension was at the request and for the convenience of the government". I should correct something. I didn't do "on-line" courses. I did traditional correspondents courses on the ships when we were deployed. On-line courses didn't exist back then. :-) Also, (and unknown to me at the time) I had been advanced in rank to E-6 however the advancement notices had not been published. E-6 and above was a per-requisite for the LDO program and the 2 month extension allowed it to become official. I wouldn't have done it anyway. Why would a more senior enlisted want to start all over again as a very junior officer? No thanks. Besides, I had pretty much had enough of the Navy by that time. I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy. Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree. I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes, as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank. To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements. If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others. Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment. I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
|
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:10:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 07:40:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 5:27 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 9:44 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.** Join the navy reserves while in high school.** When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.** Then discharged.* At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I did just short of 9 years active and was supposed to be discharged in April.* Started my short-timer's calendar and also sending out resumes for jobs.* Then, a few weeks before D-day, I was informed that my enlistment had been extended for an additional 2 months.* I went a little bonkers because my understanding had been that after 8 years of active duty, your required eligibility for military service was complete.* Anyway, I lost the argument but the CO of the command (this was in Annapolis, MD) who was also a short-timer told me I could go home for the last few weeks and just call in every morning for muster.* I was processed for discharge and my discharge papers would be mailed to me. He also said he'd try to find out what the extension was all about because it* wasn't like I held a critical billet at the command and they didn't need my replacement.* The Navy was beginning to decommission the command* and were already mothballing equipment. The CO found out that (unknown to me) I had been selected to attend a 5 week prep school* called "Officer Development School (ODS)" which would then lead to a direct commission to Warrant as an LDO (limited duty officer).* LDO's are not flag officers and can never be a CO of a ship or anything.* They usually serve in at commands that require their educational and technical specialties. Anyway, I didn't opt for it.* The extension was to allow time for the orders and the school schedule.* Only problem was they neglected to tell me about it in the paperwork shuffle.* My only guess is that the Navy had invested a lot of schools in me during my enlistment plus I had been taking courses at local colleges and on-line and was not that far from meeting a degree requirement. My DD-214 includes the following statement:* "Member's service extended by two months.* Extension was at the request and for the convenience of the government". I should correct something. I didn't do "on-line" courses. I did traditional correspondents courses on the ships when we were deployed. On-line courses didn't exist back then. :-) Also, (and unknown to me at the time) I had been advanced in rank to E-6 however the advancement notices had not been published. E-6 and above was a per-requisite for the LDO program and the 2 month extension allowed it to become official. I wouldn't have done it anyway. Why would a more senior enlisted want to start all over again as a very junior officer? No thanks. Besides, I had pretty much had enough of the Navy by that time. I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy. Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree. I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes, as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank. To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements. If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others. Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment. I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. The Army publishes promotion 'scores' for each grade and specialty monthly. Soldiers earn points for schools, time in grade, efficiency reports, and a few other things. There is no such thing as using a promotion as an incentive to stay in. If a specialty is hurting for soldiers at a particular grade, the published promotion score is lowered to get more soldiers in the right grade for that specialty. If a specialty is overstrength in a particular grade, the score for that grade is made very high so few people will qualify. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On 2/26/2018 12:33 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:10:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 07:40:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 5:27 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 9:44 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.Â* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.Â*Â* Join the navy reserves while in high school.Â*Â* When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.Â*Â* Then discharged.Â* At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I did just short of 9 years active and was supposed to be discharged in April.Â* Started my short-timer's calendar and also sending out resumes for jobs.Â* Then, a few weeks before D-day, I was informed that my enlistment had been extended for an additional 2 months.Â* I went a little bonkers because my understanding had been that after 8 years of active duty, your required eligibility for military service was complete.Â* Anyway, I lost the argument but the CO of the command (this was in Annapolis, MD) who was also a short-timer told me I could go home for the last few weeks and just call in every morning for muster.Â* I was processed for discharge and my discharge papers would be mailed to me. He also said he'd try to find out what the extension was all about because itÂ* wasn't like I held a critical billet at the command and they didn't need my replacement.Â* The Navy was beginning to decommission the commandÂ* and were already mothballing equipment. The CO found out that (unknown to me) I had been selected to attend a 5 week prep schoolÂ* called "Officer Development School (ODS)" which would then lead to a direct commission to Warrant as an LDO (limited duty officer).Â* LDO's are not flag officers and can never be a CO of a ship or anything.Â* They usually serve in at commands that require their educational and technical specialties. Anyway, I didn't opt for it.Â* The extension was to allow time for the orders and the school schedule.Â* Only problem was they neglected to tell me about it in the paperwork shuffle.Â* My only guess is that the Navy had invested a lot of schools in me during my enlistment plus I had been taking courses at local colleges and on-line and was not that far from meeting a degree requirement. My DD-214 includes the following statement:Â* "Member's service extended by two months.Â* Extension was at the request and for the convenience of the government". I should correct something. I didn't do "on-line" courses. I did traditional correspondents courses on the ships when we were deployed. On-line courses didn't exist back then. :-) Also, (and unknown to me at the time) I had been advanced in rank to E-6 however the advancement notices had not been published. E-6 and above was a per-requisite for the LDO program and the 2 month extension allowed it to become official. I wouldn't have done it anyway. Why would a more senior enlisted want to start all over again as a very junior officer? No thanks. Besides, I had pretty much had enough of the Navy by that time. I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy. Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree. I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes, as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank. To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements. If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others. Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment. I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. The Army publishes promotion 'scores' for each grade and specialty monthly. Soldiers earn points for schools, time in grade, efficiency reports, and a few other things. There is no such thing as using a promotion as an incentive to stay in. If a specialty is hurting for soldiers at a particular grade, the published promotion score is lowered to get more soldiers in the right grade for that specialty. If a specialty is overstrength in a particular grade, the score for that grade is made very high so few people will qualify. Pretty much the same as the Navy, at least back in my time when ships had sails. :-) |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On 2/26/2018 12:38 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 12:33 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:10:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 07:40:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 5:27 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 9:44 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.Â* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.Â*Â* Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.Â*Â* Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I did just short of 9 years active and was supposed to be discharged in April.Â* Started my short-timer's calendar and also sending out resumes for jobs.Â* Then, a few weeks before D-day, I was informed that my enlistment had been extended for an additional 2 months.Â* I went a little bonkers because my understanding had been that after 8 years of active duty, your required eligibility for military service was complete.Â* Anyway, I lost the argument but the CO of the command (this was in Annapolis, MD) who was also a short-timer told me I could go home for the last few weeks and just call in every morning for muster. I was processed for discharge and my discharge papers would be mailed to me. He also said he'd try to find out what the extension was all about because itÂ* wasn't like I held a critical billet at the command and they didn't need my replacement.Â* The Navy was beginning to decommission the commandÂ* and were already mothballing equipment. The CO found out that (unknown to me) I had been selected to attend a 5 week prep schoolÂ* called "Officer Development School (ODS)" which would then lead to a direct commission to Warrant as an LDO (limited duty officer).Â* LDO's are not flag officers and can never be a CO of a ship or anything.Â* They usually serve in at commands that require their educational and technical specialties. Anyway, I didn't opt for it.Â* The extension was to allow time for the orders and the school schedule.Â* Only problem was they neglected to tell me about it in the paperwork shuffle.Â* My only guess is that the Navy had invested a lot of schools in me during my enlistment plus I had been taking courses at local colleges and on-line and was not that far from meeting a degree requirement. My DD-214 includes the following statement:Â* "Member's service extended by two months.Â* Extension was at the request and for the convenience of the government". I should correct something.Â* I didn't do "on-line" courses.Â* I did traditional correspondents courses on the ships when we were deployed. On-line courses didn't exist back then.Â* :-) Also, (and unknown to me at the time)Â* I had been advanced in rank to E-6 however the advancement notices had not been published.Â* E-6 and above was a per-requisite for the LDO program and the 2 month extension allowed it to become official.Â*Â* I wouldn't have done it anyway.Â* Why would a more senior enlisted want to start all over again as a very junior officer?Â*Â* No thanks. Besides, I had pretty much had enough of the Navy by that time. I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy.Â* Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree.Â* I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes,Â* as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank.Â* To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements.Â* If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others.Â* Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment.Â* I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. The Army publishes promotion 'scores' for each grade and specialty monthly. Soldiers earn points for schools, time in grade, efficiency reports, and a few other things. There is no such thing as using a promotion as an incentive to stay in. If a specialty is hurting for soldiers at a particular grade, the published promotion score is lowered to get more soldiers in the right grade for that specialty. If a specialty is overstrength in a particular grade, the score for that grade is made very high so few people will qualify. Pretty much the same as the Navy, at least back in my time when ships had sails.Â* :-) This conversation made me remember something. When I left the Navy my father-in-law was giving me hell for not sticking it out after 9 years so I'd get a pension. He *was* my wife's father after all. :-) So, after a couple of months of being discharged I went to see a recruiter about joining the reserves. If I joined within a certain time frame, the reserve status could convert back to active duty with no time lost for retirement benefits. Since I wasn't sure about a civilian career and to get my father-in-law off my back, I signed up for the reserves for 2 years. I asked the recruiter or whoever I was talking to what the chances of getting advanced to E-7 if I signed up. The original "art of the deal" negotiator. Ha! He just laughed at me. Said if I signed up right away they wouldn't reduce me in rank. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:10:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote: I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy. Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree. I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes, as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank. To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. You still needed the courses and the recommendations but if you had a rate in the pipe near your enlistment date, they would hold it and tell you you got it when you re upped. The FT rate (and a few others) were on the fast track in the CG. You could get your FT3 right out of "A" school, about 6 months in. That was up to the ship captain and mine did not believe in it. Even so it would usually be by your first anniversary. Then it was 6 months FT3 to 2 and one year time in grade for the FT1 (if you had the courses in). CPO was 2 years. You could have CPO in the pipe after 4 and just waiting for the clock. I was just not that motivated to be an FT. I really preferred to be a GM. There were a couple of FTs in the ORTEL who did do that for a while but stalled at FT2 or FT1 and really didn't care any more either. The ORTEL was the most useless waste of time anyone ever had. In the ORTAUG (deck apes and snipes) we had a 40 footer and if you got on the crew you actually did stuff. I helped rewire the boat when it was just a hole in the water we were throwing time and money at so I had a place on the crew. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements. If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others. Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment. I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. For some reason in the critical rates they made it go as fast as you wanted to go but most FTs were in the reserves. I only met a few who were regular coast guard. The advancement was the same tho. I think they shipped over from the reserves. It was a new car in those days. ($2500 or so) The 22 year old FT chiefs were famous, although most were in reserve units. I met one in New York who screwed with me about why I did not have my crow yet. He didn't get the GM idea at all ;-) I had an interesting reserve career. My first year I was in Category H, no drills and one 30 day ACDUTRA a year. They made that go away and put me in the ORTAUG. I had to TAD to a local unit whenever I traveled. That was interesting. I did it in Boston and New York. Then they changed the rules again and I had to come back to my own unit for drills. IBM hated that. In the summer of 69 they had to fly me home 4 times, 3 for drills and one for the regular "8 week trip". They really squeezed me hard to get out when my time was up and paid me to do it (raise and a promotion). I imagine that was illegal. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:28:10 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:44:16 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:30 -0500, John H. wrote: Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. I don't think the Army ever had anything like that. The least time for a voluntary enlistment was three years. For a draftee, the time was two years. But draftees weren't drafted at 18 either. I was 21 when I got my notice. I know some 18-19 year old draftees circa 65-66. Did you have a deferment? Not at all. I was drafted in 1965. All the guys I went in with that were drafted were about the same age. Maybe you had some buddies that volunteered for the draft? Maybe but one of the guys had his draft notice when he joined the marines at 19 (in 1966). I suspect the age started creeping down after 65 when we really admitted there was a war going on. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:33:33 -0500, John H.
wrote: The Army publishes promotion 'scores' for each grade and specialty monthly. Soldiers earn points for schools, time in grade, efficiency reports, and a few other things. There is no such thing as using a promotion as an incentive to stay in. If a specialty is hurting for soldiers at a particular grade, the published promotion score is lowered to get more soldiers in the right grade for that specialty. If a specialty is overstrength in a particular grade, the score for that grade is made very high so few people will qualify. This wasn't really a promotion to re up, it was more like short timers won't get promoted until they do. It may have just been because they did not want to waste the slot on a guy who was getting out. The perception was still that you had to re up for your rate. I was in that position when I left. They had my FT2 in the pipe. I had the time and my courses were in for years but I was short. They said I get the 2 if I sign. IBM made me a better offer. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:00:50 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: This conversation made me remember something. When I left the Navy my father-in-law was giving me hell for not sticking it out after 9 years so I'd get a pension. He *was* my wife's father after all. :-) So, after a couple of months of being discharged I went to see a recruiter about joining the reserves. If I joined within a certain time frame, the reserve status could convert back to active duty with no time lost for retirement benefits. Since I wasn't sure about a civilian career and to get my father-in-law off my back, I signed up for the reserves for 2 years. I asked the recruiter or whoever I was talking to what the chances of getting advanced to E-7 if I signed up. The original "art of the deal" negotiator. Ha! He just laughed at me. Said if I signed up right away they wouldn't reduce me in rank. I got beat up a little by my best friend's father, the guy who got me interested in the CG in the first place. He retired as a full commander in the reserves and wanted to know why I would not want to do the same thing. I suppose if I could have stayed in the ORTAUG and stayed on the boat, I might have. They just had a hard time explaining an FT on an unarmed 40 footer. I suppose if I had never got that stinking FT crow I could have stayed a E-3 GM striker forever. ;-) |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Monday, 26 February 2018 14:00:55 UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 12:38 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:33 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:10:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 07:40:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 5:27 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 9:44 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.Â* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.Â*Â* Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.Â*Â* Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I did just short of 9 years active and was supposed to be discharged in April.Â* Started my short-timer's calendar and also sending out resumes for jobs.Â* Then, a few weeks before D-day, I was informed that my enlistment had been extended for an additional 2 months.Â* I went a little bonkers because my understanding had been that after 8 years of active duty, your required eligibility for military service was complete.Â* Anyway, I lost the argument but the CO of the command (this was in Annapolis, MD) who was also a short-timer told me I could go home for the last few weeks and just call in every morning for muster. I was processed for discharge and my discharge papers would be mailed to me. He also said he'd try to find out what the extension was all about because itÂ* wasn't like I held a critical billet at the command and they didn't need my replacement.Â* The Navy was beginning to decommission the commandÂ* and were already mothballing equipment. The CO found out that (unknown to me) I had been selected to attend a 5 week prep schoolÂ* called "Officer Development School (ODS)" which would then lead to a direct commission to Warrant as an LDO (limited duty officer).Â* LDO's are not flag officers and can never be a CO of a ship or anything.Â* They usually serve in at commands that require their educational and technical specialties. Anyway, I didn't opt for it.Â* The extension was to allow time for the orders and the school schedule.Â* Only problem was they neglected to tell me about it in the paperwork shuffle.Â* My only guess is that the Navy had invested a lot of schools in me during my enlistment plus I had been taking courses at local colleges and on-line and was not that far from meeting a degree requirement. My DD-214 includes the following statement:Â* "Member's service extended by two months.Â* Extension was at the request and for the convenience of the government". I should correct something.Â* I didn't do "on-line" courses.Â* I did traditional correspondents courses on the ships when we were deployed. On-line courses didn't exist back then.Â* :-) Also, (and unknown to me at the time)Â* I had been advanced in rank to E-6 however the advancement notices had not been published.Â* E-6 and above was a per-requisite for the LDO program and the 2 month extension allowed it to become official.Â*Â* I wouldn't have done it anyway.Â* Why would a more senior enlisted want to start all over again as a very junior officer?Â*Â* No thanks. Besides, I had pretty much had enough of the Navy by that time. I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy.Â* Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree.Â* I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes,Â* as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank.Â* To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements.Â* If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others.Â* Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment.Â* I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. The Army publishes promotion 'scores' for each grade and specialty monthly. Soldiers earn points for schools, time in grade, efficiency reports, and a few other things. There is no such thing as using a promotion as an incentive to stay in. If a specialty is hurting for soldiers at a particular grade, the published promotion score is lowered to get more soldiers in the right grade for that specialty. If a specialty is overstrength in a particular grade, the score for that grade is made very high so few people will qualify. Pretty much the same as the Navy, at least back in my time when ships had sails.Â* :-) This conversation made me remember something. When I left the Navy my father-in-law was giving me hell for not sticking it out after 9 years so I'd get a pension. He *was* my wife's father after all. :-) So, after a couple of months of being discharged I went to see a recruiter about joining the reserves. If I joined within a certain time frame, the reserve status could convert back to active duty with no time lost for retirement benefits. Since I wasn't sure about a civilian career and to get my father-in-law off my back, I signed up for the reserves for 2 years. I asked the recruiter or whoever I was talking to what the chances of getting advanced to E-7 if I signed up. The original "art of the deal" negotiator. Ha! He just laughed at me. Said if I signed up right away they wouldn't reduce me in rank. You'd see a lot of that here in a Navy town. Guys would do their 25 and get out in their early 40's and hopefully into a civvy job. The smarter ones would get on with maybe an electronic or weapons contractor and others would end up in the post office. Depended on your useable military skills. One of my cousins retired as a Lt Colonel in our Air Force and the next week moved down a floor to take a Reserves job at our Defense Headquarters in Ottawa. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:29:24 -0500, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:10:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote: I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy. Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree. I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes, as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank. To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. You still needed the courses and the recommendations but if you had a rate in the pipe near your enlistment date, they would hold it and tell you you got it when you re upped. The FT rate (and a few others) were on the fast track in the CG. You could get your FT3 right out of "A" school, about 6 months in. That was up to the ship captain and mine did not believe in it. Even so it would usually be by your first anniversary. Then it was 6 months FT3 to 2 and one year time in grade for the FT1 (if you had the courses in). CPO was 2 years. You could have CPO in the pipe after 4 and just waiting for the clock. I was just not that motivated to be an FT. I really preferred to be a GM. There were a couple of FTs in the ORTEL who did do that for a while but stalled at FT2 or FT1 and really didn't care any more either. The ORTEL was the most useless waste of time anyone ever had. In the ORTAUG (deck apes and snipes) we had a 40 footer and if you got on the crew you actually did stuff. I helped rewire the boat when it was just a hole in the water we were throwing time and money at so I had a place on the crew. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements. If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others. Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment. I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. For some reason in the critical rates they made it go as fast as you wanted to go but most FTs were in the reserves. I only met a few who were regular coast guard. The advancement was the same tho. I think they shipped over from the reserves. It was a new car in those days. ($2500 or so) The 22 year old FT chiefs were famous, although most were in reserve units. I met one in New York who screwed with me about why I did not have my crow yet. He didn't get the GM idea at all ;-) I had an interesting reserve career. My first year I was in Category H, no drills and one 30 day ACDUTRA a year. They made that go away and put me in the ORTAUG. I had to TAD to a local unit whenever I traveled. That was interesting. I did it in Boston and New York. Then they changed the rules again and I had to come back to my own unit for drills. IBM hated that. In the summer of 69 they had to fly me home 4 times, 3 for drills and one for the regular "8 week trip". They really squeezed me hard to get out when my time was up and paid me to do it (raise and a promotion). I imagine that was illegal. Sure wish the Coast Guard had been drafting people back in '65! |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:32:21 -0500, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:28:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:44:16 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:30 -0500, John H. wrote: Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. I don't think the Army ever had anything like that. The least time for a voluntary enlistment was three years. For a draftee, the time was two years. But draftees weren't drafted at 18 either. I was 21 when I got my notice. I know some 18-19 year old draftees circa 65-66. Did you have a deferment? Not at all. I was drafted in 1965. All the guys I went in with that were drafted were about the same age. Maybe you had some buddies that volunteered for the draft? Maybe but one of the guys had his draft notice when he joined the marines at 19 (in 1966). I suspect the age started creeping down after 65 when we really admitted there was a war going on. That could well be. In '67-'68 we got a huge shipment of McNamara's 100,000 troops in Germany. The Army was scraping the bottom of the barrel then, and we sure suffered for it. I left Germany for Vietnam at the end of '68, and I was glad to get away. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
|
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:47:26 -0800 (PST), True North wrote:
On Monday, 26 February 2018 14:00:55 UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:38 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:33 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:10:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 07:40:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 5:27 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 9:44 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.** Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.** Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I did just short of 9 years active and was supposed to be discharged in April.* Started my short-timer's calendar and also sending out resumes for jobs.* Then, a few weeks before D-day, I was informed that my enlistment had been extended for an additional 2 months.* I went a little bonkers because my understanding had been that after 8 years of active duty, your required eligibility for military service was complete.* Anyway, I lost the argument but the CO of the command (this was in Annapolis, MD) who was also a short-timer told me I could go home for the last few weeks and just call in every morning for muster. I was processed for discharge and my discharge papers would be mailed to me. He also said he'd try to find out what the extension was all about because it* wasn't like I held a critical billet at the command and they didn't need my replacement.* The Navy was beginning to decommission the command* and were already mothballing equipment. The CO found out that (unknown to me) I had been selected to attend a 5 week prep school* called "Officer Development School (ODS)" which would then lead to a direct commission to Warrant as an LDO (limited duty officer).* LDO's are not flag officers and can never be a CO of a ship or anything.* They usually serve in at commands that require their educational and technical specialties. Anyway, I didn't opt for it.* The extension was to allow time for the orders and the school schedule.* Only problem was they neglected to tell me about it in the paperwork shuffle.* My only guess is that the Navy had invested a lot of schools in me during my enlistment plus I had been taking courses at local colleges and on-line and was not that far from meeting a degree requirement. My DD-214 includes the following statement:* "Member's service extended by two months.* Extension was at the request and for the convenience of the government". I should correct something.* I didn't do "on-line" courses.* I did traditional correspondents courses on the ships when we were deployed. On-line courses didn't exist back then.* :-) Also, (and unknown to me at the time)* I had been advanced in rank to E-6 however the advancement notices had not been published.* E-6 and above was a per-requisite for the LDO program and the 2 month extension allowed it to become official.** I wouldn't have done it anyway.* Why would a more senior enlisted want to start all over again as a very junior officer?** No thanks. Besides, I had pretty much had enough of the Navy by that time. I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy.* Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree.* I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes,* as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank.* To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements.* If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others.* Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment.* I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. The Army publishes promotion 'scores' for each grade and specialty monthly. Soldiers earn points for schools, time in grade, efficiency reports, and a few other things. There is no such thing as using a promotion as an incentive to stay in. If a specialty is hurting for soldiers at a particular grade, the published promotion score is lowered to get more soldiers in the right grade for that specialty. If a specialty is overstrength in a particular grade, the score for that grade is made very high so few people will qualify. Pretty much the same as the Navy, at least back in my time when ships had sails.* :-) This conversation made me remember something. When I left the Navy my father-in-law was giving me hell for not sticking it out after 9 years so I'd get a pension. He *was* my wife's father after all. :-) So, after a couple of months of being discharged I went to see a recruiter about joining the reserves. If I joined within a certain time frame, the reserve status could convert back to active duty with no time lost for retirement benefits. Since I wasn't sure about a civilian career and to get my father-in-law off my back, I signed up for the reserves for 2 years. I asked the recruiter or whoever I was talking to what the chances of getting advanced to E-7 if I signed up. The original "art of the deal" negotiator. Ha! He just laughed at me. Said if I signed up right away they wouldn't reduce me in rank. You'd see a lot of that here in a Navy town. Guys would do their 25 and get out in their early 40's and hopefully into a civvy job. The smarter ones would get on with maybe an electronic or weapons contractor and others would end up in the post office. Depended on your useable military skills. One of my cousins retired as a Lt Colonel in our Air Force and the next week moved down a floor to take a Reserves job at our Defense Headquarters in Ottawa. According to Harry, he must have sucked to retire at only a Lt. Colonel. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:54:27 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:29:24 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:10:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote: I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy. Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree. I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes, as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank. To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. You still needed the courses and the recommendations but if you had a rate in the pipe near your enlistment date, they would hold it and tell you you got it when you re upped. The FT rate (and a few others) were on the fast track in the CG. You could get your FT3 right out of "A" school, about 6 months in. That was up to the ship captain and mine did not believe in it. Even so it would usually be by your first anniversary. Then it was 6 months FT3 to 2 and one year time in grade for the FT1 (if you had the courses in). CPO was 2 years. You could have CPO in the pipe after 4 and just waiting for the clock. I was just not that motivated to be an FT. I really preferred to be a GM. There were a couple of FTs in the ORTEL who did do that for a while but stalled at FT2 or FT1 and really didn't care any more either. The ORTEL was the most useless waste of time anyone ever had. In the ORTAUG (deck apes and snipes) we had a 40 footer and if you got on the crew you actually did stuff. I helped rewire the boat when it was just a hole in the water we were throwing time and money at so I had a place on the crew. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements. If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others. Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment. I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. For some reason in the critical rates they made it go as fast as you wanted to go but most FTs were in the reserves. I only met a few who were regular coast guard. The advancement was the same tho. I think they shipped over from the reserves. It was a new car in those days. ($2500 or so) The 22 year old FT chiefs were famous, although most were in reserve units. I met one in New York who screwed with me about why I did not have my crow yet. He didn't get the GM idea at all ;-) I had an interesting reserve career. My first year I was in Category H, no drills and one 30 day ACDUTRA a year. They made that go away and put me in the ORTAUG. I had to TAD to a local unit whenever I traveled. That was interesting. I did it in Boston and New York. Then they changed the rules again and I had to come back to my own unit for drills. IBM hated that. In the summer of 69 they had to fly me home 4 times, 3 for drills and one for the regular "8 week trip". They really squeezed me hard to get out when my time was up and paid me to do it (raise and a promotion). I imagine that was illegal. Sure wish the Coast Guard had been drafting people back in '65! You could always join if you passed the tests. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:58:03 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:32:21 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:28:10 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:44:16 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:30 -0500, John H. wrote: Kiddy cruise. Join the navy reserves while in high school. When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty. Then discharged. At least when I was in high school. I don't think the Army ever had anything like that. The least time for a voluntary enlistment was three years. For a draftee, the time was two years. But draftees weren't drafted at 18 either. I was 21 when I got my notice. I know some 18-19 year old draftees circa 65-66. Did you have a deferment? Not at all. I was drafted in 1965. All the guys I went in with that were drafted were about the same age. Maybe you had some buddies that volunteered for the draft? Maybe but one of the guys had his draft notice when he joined the marines at 19 (in 1966). I suspect the age started creeping down after 65 when we really admitted there was a war going on. That could well be. In '67-'68 we got a huge shipment of McNamara's 100,000 troops in Germany. The Army was scraping the bottom of the barrel then, and we sure suffered for it. I left Germany for Vietnam at the end of '68, and I was glad to get away. My golfing buddy that I have known since 3d grade was one of those. He graduated from college in june of 68 and was drafted within 6 months. They ended up making him a computer guy in Germany. That is where he took up golf. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:07:42 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:37:20 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:33:33 -0500, John H. wrote: The Army publishes promotion 'scores' for each grade and specialty monthly. Soldiers earn points for schools, time in grade, efficiency reports, and a few other things. There is no such thing as using a promotion as an incentive to stay in. If a specialty is hurting for soldiers at a particular grade, the published promotion score is lowered to get more soldiers in the right grade for that specialty. If a specialty is overstrength in a particular grade, the score for that grade is made very high so few people will qualify. This wasn't really a promotion to re up, it was more like short timers won't get promoted until they do. It may have just been because they did not want to waste the slot on a guy who was getting out. The perception was still that you had to re up for your rate. I was in that position when I left. They had my FT2 in the pipe. I had the time and my courses were in for years but I was short. They said I get the 2 if I sign. IBM made me a better offer. In the Army, a soldier who accepts a promotion to E-7 or above incurs an additional three year obligation. They incur a one year obligation for promotion to E-6. Below that there is no addition obligation. Now you are just confirming what I was saying. The difference is was 4 years in the active service or 6 in the reserves. That was the only contracts they wrote. It did only happen if you were short tho. I never heard on anyone in the middle of their enlistment period having to sign up for anything else. I know the navy guys in FT school had to sign up for a fresh 6 years to get the school. That was why the E5 who was having trouble was so nervous. All sorts of bad stuff happened if he flunked out (maybe even reduction to E3 as I remember) and he had 6 more years of it. I tutored him through the school until he was up to speed. It was good for both of us if you get my drift. I suddenly did not have to do calisthenics in the morning or march on the grinder in the afternoon. We were studying. He ended up near me at the top of the class and I hope he went on to a great navy career. |
Kids Say the Darndest Things
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 11:42 AM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 07:40:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 5:27 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/25/2018 9:44 PM, wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: I wonder how many service members are discharged before turning 21 anyway, but I understand your point.Â* Military service matures most. Very few, I'd reckon. Kiddy cruise.Â*Â* Join the navy reserves while in high school.Â*Â* When you graduated, went to basic and 2 years duty.Â*Â* Then discharged.Â* At least when I was in high school. That was pretty much everyone who was drafted when that was a thing and the 4 years after your 2 "in" was inactive reserve. Unfortunately they "extended" a lot of those guys in the late 60s, exploiting that inactive reserve clause. The guys in the grass were usually 2 and out if they didn't re up but there were a lot of support USAF and maybe even navy guys with critical skills who had to do the whole 6 year nut. I was in a 1 year reserve program that got extended by a month (13 months active duty), putting me pretty much in the same VA category as a 2 year guy. I never used any of it. I did just short of 9 years active and was supposed to be discharged in April.Â* Started my short-timer's calendar and also sending out resumes for jobs.Â* Then, a few weeks before D-day, I was informed that my enlistment had been extended for an additional 2 months.Â* I went a little bonkers because my understanding had been that after 8 years of active duty, your required eligibility for military service was complete.Â* Anyway, I lost the argument but the CO of the command (this was in Annapolis, MD) who was also a short-timer told me I could go home for the last few weeks and just call in every morning for muster.Â* I was processed for discharge and my discharge papers would be mailed to me. He also said he'd try to find out what the extension was all about because itÂ* wasn't like I held a critical billet at the command and they didn't need my replacement.Â* The Navy was beginning to decommission the commandÂ* and were already mothballing equipment. The CO found out that (unknown to me) I had been selected to attend a 5 week prep schoolÂ* called "Officer Development School (ODS)" which would then lead to a direct commission to Warrant as an LDO (limited duty officer).Â* LDO's are not flag officers and can never be a CO of a ship or anything.Â* They usually serve in at commands that require their educational and technical specialties. Anyway, I didn't opt for it.Â* The extension was to allow time for the orders and the school schedule.Â* Only problem was they neglected to tell me about it in the paperwork shuffle.Â* My only guess is that the Navy had invested a lot of schools in me during my enlistment plus I had been taking courses at local colleges and on-line and was not that far from meeting a degree requirement. My DD-214 includes the following statement:Â* "Member's service extended by two months.Â* Extension was at the request and for the convenience of the government". I should correct something. I didn't do "on-line" courses. I did traditional correspondents courses on the ships when we were deployed. On-line courses didn't exist back then. :-) Also, (and unknown to me at the time) I had been advanced in rank to E-6 however the advancement notices had not been published. E-6 and above was a per-requisite for the LDO program and the 2 month extension allowed it to become official. I wouldn't have done it anyway. Why would a more senior enlisted want to start all over again as a very junior officer? No thanks. Besides, I had pretty much had enough of the Navy by that time. I was supposed to be fast tracked in the CG and it was not uncommon for guys to be E-6 (FT1) in 4 years with the CPO as the incentive to ship over. Unfortunately me taking the GM 3&2 course and pushing that instead of the FT3 that was pretty much automatic after "A" school, derailed that path. When I got to my reserve unit I was in an ORTAUG and back to being a Gunner's Mate until they finally found me 3 years later. They gave me my FT3 crow and shipped me off to the ORTEL (electronics unit). I couldn't wait to get out after that. I don't know of anyone who was "fast tracked" in the Navy. Some were given E-3 straight out of boot camp if they had a college degree. I also never heard of anyone getting advanced as an incentive for re-enlisting. Money, yes, as a re-enlistment bonus for critical (needed) rates but no advancement in rank. To be advanced you had to have completed the qualifications, done the courses, get the sign-offs and recommendations, have the required time in your current rank, take the test and wait and see if you made it. Often the Navy had several "increments" of advancements. If you scored high enough on the test combined with time in rank, you might make it on the "first" increment, meaning sooner than others. Some may be advanced but would have to wait until the second or third increment. I remember that some delayed advancements permitted you to sew the new "crow" on your uniforms and take on responsibilities for the new rank but you had to wait until the official date according to what increment you were advanced under to receive the additional pay. The Air Force sucked for getting rank if you changed specialties. They disbanded the mobile comm squadron I was first in and sent to the IT section as I worked on computers, as a clerk. Then changed to fixing airborne radar units. Each a different AFSC. So was hard to get the two years experience two get the promotion in rank. Was an AF problem |
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