On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/10/2017 3:34 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:18:31 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:07:09 -0600, "Ryan P."
wrote:

On 3/9/2017 4:40 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 3/9/17 4:12 PM, Ryan P. wrote:
On 3/9/2017 6:44 AM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/attn/videos/1305416199493836/

Hollywood's version of the middle class worker.


Mike Rowe is a fantastic advocate for skilled labor.

In my own state, there's a huge shortage of skilled labor like welders,
plumbers, electricians, etc.

The problem is that the East and West Coast Elite's have made succeeded
in getting people to think that no going to a 4-year college is an awful
thing, and instruction in the Trades is de-emphasized (if it even
exists) at the high school/middle school level in most districts.

The consequence is that, as Mike Rowe stated, kids think of these jobs
as unworthy or beneath them. The fact that many people in the trades
make far more money than many college graduates is never disclosed to
these kids. If you're a good welder, you going to make 6 figures easy,
for example.


One of the serious and known problems in the skilled building trades is
the fact that for many workers in all parts of the country the work
isn't constant. Jobs come and jobs go, and while you might land a job on
a site that provides a few months worth of work, you might well go a few
months with no work in your field, and you might not be able to find any
work that pays enough to support you and your family until another good
job pops up.

Another problem, also known, is the high incidence of serious injury
that accompanies work in many of the construction trades.

The idea that construction workers in the skilled trades are stupid
is...just stupid. Many of the trades require workers who have advanced
skills in math and chemistry, for example.

It's a tough way to make a living. There are easier ways.

I think that circles back to the comment that many of the skilled
trade folks aren't the best at managing their finances.

I have cousin who spent many years working for a landscaping company.
He would make great money during the summer, and then only got paid in
the winter when it snowed and he could plow. He always spent the winter
crying poor and could never afford anything. I helped him with his
taxes one year, and found he was making more than I was at his age by
about $10K. His problem was not being able to budget properly...

That's something that also isn't being taught in High School any
longer unless you take accounting electives.

They are so busy teaching politically correct courses that they do not
really teach any life skills these days. Manual arts, shop or whatever
you want to call it has pretty much gone away unless you are in a
vo-tech and the good old "Home Ec" is gone completely. We have a
couple generations of kids who do not even know how to feed
themselves. They have to call someone to find a tripped breaker.
There are plenty of people, even our age, who do not have a clue about
money management. I can't believe the number of baby boomers who are
thinking about retirement and they still have a mortgage, credit card
debt and a car payment.


My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

I hate plumbing crap also, but I've outgrown my fear of toilets. Everything is right there, if the
shutoff valve works. That's sometimes a problem because folks don't open and close the valve and it
gets stuck. So, go close and open your toilet valves right now. The rest is easy, unless the wax
ring is leaking. I've replaced one, but it's a PITA.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

===

I feel exactly the same way. Plumbing and I have never gotten along
well together and do it only when absolutely necessary.

Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/10/2017 3:34 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:18:31 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:07:09 -0600, "Ryan P."
wrote:

On 3/9/2017 4:40 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 3/9/17 4:12 PM, Ryan P. wrote:
On 3/9/2017 6:44 AM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/attn/videos/1305416199493836/

Hollywood's version of the middle class worker.


Mike Rowe is a fantastic advocate for skilled labor.

In my own state, there's a huge shortage of skilled labor like welders,
plumbers, electricians, etc.

The problem is that the East and West Coast Elite's have made succeeded
in getting people to think that no going to a 4-year college is an awful
thing, and instruction in the Trades is de-emphasized (if it even
exists) at the high school/middle school level in most districts.

The consequence is that, as Mike Rowe stated, kids think of these jobs
as unworthy or beneath them. The fact that many people in the trades
make far more money than many college graduates is never disclosed to
these kids. If you're a good welder, you going to make 6 figures easy,
for example.


One of the serious and known problems in the skilled building trades is
the fact that for many workers in all parts of the country the work
isn't constant. Jobs come and jobs go, and while you might land a job on
a site that provides a few months worth of work, you might well go a few
months with no work in your field, and you might not be able to find any
work that pays enough to support you and your family until another good
job pops up.

Another problem, also known, is the high incidence of serious injury
that accompanies work in many of the construction trades.

The idea that construction workers in the skilled trades are stupid
is...just stupid. Many of the trades require workers who have advanced
skills in math and chemistry, for example.

It's a tough way to make a living. There are easier ways.

I think that circles back to the comment that many of the skilled
trade folks aren't the best at managing their finances.

I have cousin who spent many years working for a landscaping company.
He would make great money during the summer, and then only got paid in
the winter when it snowed and he could plow. He always spent the winter
crying poor and could never afford anything. I helped him with his
taxes one year, and found he was making more than I was at his age by
about $10K. His problem was not being able to budget properly...

That's something that also isn't being taught in High School any
longer unless you take accounting electives.

They are so busy teaching politically correct courses that they do not
really teach any life skills these days. Manual arts, shop or whatever
you want to call it has pretty much gone away unless you are in a
vo-tech and the good old "Home Ec" is gone completely. We have a
couple generations of kids who do not even know how to feed
themselves. They have to call someone to find a tripped breaker.
There are plenty of people, even our age, who do not have a clue about
money management. I can't believe the number of baby boomers who are
thinking about retirement and they still have a mortgage, credit card
debt and a car payment.


My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's
truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His
fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet
was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to
WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

I hate plumbing crap also, but I've outgrown my fear of toilets.
Everything is right there, if the
shutoff valve works. That's sometimes a problem because folks don't open
and close the valve and it
gets stuck. So, go close and open your toilet valves right now. The rest
is easy, unless the wax
ring is leaking. I've replaced one, but it's a PITA.


Toilets are OK. Can get to them. And when the kids were small, always
kept an extra wax ring, and they would dump something down the toilet and
plug the dang thing. Under sinks are the worst. No really room. I am a
big guy. 6'4" and 46" Xlong coat.

Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:18:31 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:07:09 -0600, "Ryan P."
wrote:

On 3/9/2017 4:40 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 3/9/17 4:12 PM, Ryan P. wrote:
On 3/9/2017 6:44 AM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/attn/videos/1305416199493836/

Hollywood's version of the middle class worker.

Mike Rowe is a fantastic advocate for skilled labor.

In my own state, there's a huge shortage of skilled labor like welders,
plumbers, electricians, etc.

The problem is that the East and West Coast Elite's have made succeeded
in getting people to think that no going to a 4-year college is an awful
thing, and instruction in the Trades is de-emphasized (if it even
exists) at the high school/middle school level in most districts.

The consequence is that, as Mike Rowe stated, kids think of these jobs
as unworthy or beneath them. The fact that many people in the trades
make far more money than many college graduates is never disclosed to
these kids. If you're a good welder, you going to make 6 figures easy,
for example.

One of the serious and known problems in the skilled building trades is
the fact that for many workers in all parts of the country the work
isn't constant. Jobs come and jobs go, and while you might land a job on
a site that provides a few months worth of work, you might well go a few
months with no work in your field, and you might not be able to find any
work that pays enough to support you and your family until another good
job pops up.

Another problem, also known, is the high incidence of serious injury
that accompanies work in many of the construction trades.

The idea that construction workers in the skilled trades are stupid
is...just stupid. Many of the trades require workers who have advanced
skills in math and chemistry, for example.

It's a tough way to make a living. There are easier ways.
I think that circles back to the comment that many of the skilled
trade folks aren't the best at managing their finances.

I have cousin who spent many years working for a landscaping company.
He would make great money during the summer, and then only got paid in
the winter when it snowed and he could plow. He always spent the winter
crying poor and could never afford anything. I helped him with his
taxes one year, and found he was making more than I was at his age by
about $10K. His problem was not being able to budget properly...

That's something that also isn't being taught in High School any
longer unless you take accounting electives.
They are so busy teaching politically correct courses that they do not
really teach any life skills these days. Manual arts, shop or whatever
you want to call it has pretty much gone away unless you are in a
vo-tech and the good old "Home Ec" is gone completely. We have a
couple generations of kids who do not even know how to feed
themselves. They have to call someone to find a tripped breaker.
There are plenty of people, even our age, who do not have a clue about
money management. I can't believe the number of baby boomers who are
thinking about retirement and they still have a mortgage, credit card
debt and a car payment.
My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.

He's lucky it was only $75!

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 16:05:27 -0500, Poco Deplorevole
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/10/2017 3:34 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:


My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

I hate plumbing crap also, but I've outgrown my fear of toilets. Everything is right there, if the
shutoff valve works. That's sometimes a problem because folks don't open and close the valve and it
gets stuck. So, go close and open your toilet valves right now. The rest is easy, unless the wax
ring is leaking. I've replaced one, but it's a PITA.

Plumbing has never been a problem for me. I did all of it in both
bathroom remodels including the underground. One involved plumbing in
a wall hanging toilet.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/new%20room/Plumbing.jpg

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 23:07:31 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:


Toilets are OK. Can get to them. And when the kids were small, always
kept an extra wax ring, and they would dump something down the toilet and
plug the dang thing. Under sinks are the worst. No really room. I am a
big guy. 6'4" and 46" Xlong coat.

One thing I found is, it goes a lot easier if you use the new hose
type connections for the faucet hook up. The newer faucets also have
extended pigtails on the water inputs so they are below the sink base.
The Price Pfisters I have in the kitchens also have an extended bolt
deal to hold them down so you are just working with a socket, not a
basin wrench and you are not on your back inside the cabinet.
Some time it is easier just to pull the sink out, plumb it and put it
back. My wife usually jumps in and cleans all of that stuff that was
hard to get to with the sink in place.
In the master bath I have some hard to get at Delta faucets but I took
a key from the PPs and extended the intake pipes so I can see them
below the sink. The typical 1/2" NPT stems have an internal diameter
that lends itself to tapping to 1/4" pipe and then you can extend it
down with a pipe nipple, put a female adapter to 3/8 compression and
screw on one of those hoses. The collar nut that locks it to the sink
still slips right over all of that.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:56:21 -0500, Alex wrote:

Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:18:31 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:07:09 -0600, "Ryan P."
wrote:

On 3/9/2017 4:40 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 3/9/17 4:12 PM, Ryan P. wrote:
On 3/9/2017 6:44 AM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/attn/videos/1305416199493836/

Hollywood's version of the middle class worker.

Mike Rowe is a fantastic advocate for skilled labor.

In my own state, there's a huge shortage of skilled labor like welders,
plumbers, electricians, etc.

The problem is that the East and West Coast Elite's have made succeeded
in getting people to think that no going to a 4-year college is an awful
thing, and instruction in the Trades is de-emphasized (if it even
exists) at the high school/middle school level in most districts.

The consequence is that, as Mike Rowe stated, kids think of these jobs
as unworthy or beneath them. The fact that many people in the trades
make far more money than many college graduates is never disclosed to
these kids. If you're a good welder, you going to make 6 figures easy,
for example.

One of the serious and known problems in the skilled building trades is
the fact that for many workers in all parts of the country the work
isn't constant. Jobs come and jobs go, and while you might land a job on
a site that provides a few months worth of work, you might well go a few
months with no work in your field, and you might not be able to find any
work that pays enough to support you and your family until another good
job pops up.

Another problem, also known, is the high incidence of serious injury
that accompanies work in many of the construction trades.

The idea that construction workers in the skilled trades are stupid
is...just stupid. Many of the trades require workers who have advanced
skills in math and chemistry, for example.

It's a tough way to make a living. There are easier ways.
I think that circles back to the comment that many of the skilled
trade folks aren't the best at managing their finances.

I have cousin who spent many years working for a landscaping company.
He would make great money during the summer, and then only got paid in
the winter when it snowed and he could plow. He always spent the winter
crying poor and could never afford anything. I helped him with his
taxes one year, and found he was making more than I was at his age by
about $10K. His problem was not being able to budget properly...

That's something that also isn't being taught in High School any
longer unless you take accounting electives.
They are so busy teaching politically correct courses that they do not
really teach any life skills these days. Manual arts, shop or whatever
you want to call it has pretty much gone away unless you are in a
vo-tech and the good old "Home Ec" is gone completely. We have a
couple generations of kids who do not even know how to feed
themselves. They have to call someone to find a tripped breaker.
There are plenty of people, even our age, who do not have a clue about
money management. I can't believe the number of baby boomers who are
thinking about retirement and they still have a mortgage, credit card
debt and a car payment.
My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.

He's lucky it was only $75!

According to him it was a guy who's been doing his plumbing work for a long time. Hell, it couldn't
have taken more than 15 minutes to put in a new flush valve.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 02:26:40 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 23:07:31 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:


Toilets are OK. Can get to them. And when the kids were small, always
kept an extra wax ring, and they would dump something down the toilet and
plug the dang thing. Under sinks are the worst. No really room. I am a
big guy. 6'4" and 46" Xlong coat.

One thing I found is, it goes a lot easier if you use the new hose
type connections for the faucet hook up. The newer faucets also have
extended pigtails on the water inputs so they are below the sink base.
The Price Pfisters I have in the kitchens also have an extended bolt
deal to hold them down so you are just working with a socket, not a
basin wrench and you are not on your back inside the cabinet.
Some time it is easier just to pull the sink out, plumb it and put it
back. My wife usually jumps in and cleans all of that stuff that was
hard to get to with the sink in place.
In the master bath I have some hard to get at Delta faucets but I took
a key from the PPs and extended the intake pipes so I can see them
below the sink. The typical 1/2" NPT stems have an internal diameter
that lends itself to tapping to 1/4" pipe and then you can extend it
down with a pipe nipple, put a female adapter to 3/8 compression and
screw on one of those hoses. The collar nut that locks it to the sink
still slips right over all of that.


Fine. Now put all of that on a You Tube video for us. I'll clean all the crap out from under the
sinks, but I sure as hell won't put it back. I know much of that 'stuff' has to have been in there
for years...untouched by human hands.

Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:56:21 -0500, Alex wrote:

Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:18:31 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:07:09 -0600, "Ryan P."
wrote:

On 3/9/2017 4:40 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 3/9/17 4:12 PM, Ryan P. wrote:
On 3/9/2017 6:44 AM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/attn/videos/1305416199493836/

Hollywood's version of the middle class worker.

Mike Rowe is a fantastic advocate for skilled labor.

In my own state, there's a huge shortage of skilled labor like welders,
plumbers, electricians, etc.

The problem is that the East and West Coast Elite's have made succeeded
in getting people to think that no going to a 4-year college is an awful
thing, and instruction in the Trades is de-emphasized (if it even
exists) at the high school/middle school level in most districts.

The consequence is that, as Mike Rowe stated, kids think of these jobs
as unworthy or beneath them. The fact that many people in the trades
make far more money than many college graduates is never disclosed to
these kids. If you're a good welder, you going to make 6 figures easy,
for example.

One of the serious and known problems in the skilled building trades is
the fact that for many workers in all parts of the country the work
isn't constant. Jobs come and jobs go, and while you might land a job on
a site that provides a few months worth of work, you might well go a few
months with no work in your field, and you might not be able to find any
work that pays enough to support you and your family until another good
job pops up.

Another problem, also known, is the high incidence of serious injury
that accompanies work in many of the construction trades.

The idea that construction workers in the skilled trades are stupid
is...just stupid. Many of the trades require workers who have advanced
skills in math and chemistry, for example.

It's a tough way to make a living. There are easier ways.
I think that circles back to the comment that many of the skilled
trade folks aren't the best at managing their finances.

I have cousin who spent many years working for a landscaping company.
He would make great money during the summer, and then only got paid in
the winter when it snowed and he could plow. He always spent the winter
crying poor and could never afford anything. I helped him with his
taxes one year, and found he was making more than I was at his age by
about $10K. His problem was not being able to budget properly...

That's something that also isn't being taught in High School any
longer unless you take accounting electives.
They are so busy teaching politically correct courses that they do not
really teach any life skills these days. Manual arts, shop or whatever
you want to call it has pretty much gone away unless you are in a
vo-tech and the good old "Home Ec" is gone completely. We have a
couple generations of kids who do not even know how to feed
themselves. They have to call someone to find a tripped breaker.
There are plenty of people, even our age, who do not have a clue about
money management. I can't believe the number of baby boomers who are
thinking about retirement and they still have a mortgage, credit card
debt and a car payment.
My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's
truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His
fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet
was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to
WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.

He's lucky it was only $75!

According to him it was a guy who's been doing his plumbing work for a
long time. Hell, it couldn't
have taken more than 15 minutes to put in a new flush valve.


And how much time for travel, and government required bookkeeping?

justan wrote:
Wrote in message:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 16:05:27 -0500, Poco Deplorevole
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/10/2017 3:34 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:


My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's
truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His
fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet
was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to
WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

I hate plumbing crap also, but I've outgrown my fear of toilets.
Everything is right there, if the
shutoff valve works. That's sometimes a problem because folks don't
open and close the valve and it
gets stuck. So, go close and open your toilet valves right now. The
rest is easy, unless the wax
ring is leaking. I've replaced one, but it's a PITA.

Plumbing has never been a problem for me. I did all of it in both
bathroom remodels including the underground. One involved plumbing in
a wall hanging toilet.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/new%20room/Plumbing.jpg


Plumbing is ALWAYS a problem. All but the most routine jobs
require at least 3 trips to Ace hardware.

A friend years ago was a contractor. Sink p-trap breaks on thanksgiving.
He went to,his neighbor who was a plumbing contractor. He said he knows
how they do good jobs quick. Contractor loaned him the work truck, and he
said had any possible item required. No extra trips.