On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 18:27:59 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:56:21 -0500, Alex wrote:

Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:18:31 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:07:09 -0600, "Ryan P."
wrote:

On 3/9/2017 4:40 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 3/9/17 4:12 PM, Ryan P. wrote:
On 3/9/2017 6:44 AM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/attn/videos/1305416199493836/

Hollywood's version of the middle class worker.

Mike Rowe is a fantastic advocate for skilled labor.

In my own state, there's a huge shortage of skilled labor like welders,
plumbers, electricians, etc.

The problem is that the East and West Coast Elite's have made succeeded
in getting people to think that no going to a 4-year college is an awful
thing, and instruction in the Trades is de-emphasized (if it even
exists) at the high school/middle school level in most districts.

The consequence is that, as Mike Rowe stated, kids think of these jobs
as unworthy or beneath them. The fact that many people in the trades
make far more money than many college graduates is never disclosed to
these kids. If you're a good welder, you going to make 6 figures easy,
for example.

One of the serious and known problems in the skilled building trades is
the fact that for many workers in all parts of the country the work
isn't constant. Jobs come and jobs go, and while you might land a job on
a site that provides a few months worth of work, you might well go a few
months with no work in your field, and you might not be able to find any
work that pays enough to support you and your family until another good
job pops up.

Another problem, also known, is the high incidence of serious injury
that accompanies work in many of the construction trades.

The idea that construction workers in the skilled trades are stupid
is...just stupid. Many of the trades require workers who have advanced
skills in math and chemistry, for example.

It's a tough way to make a living. There are easier ways.
I think that circles back to the comment that many of the skilled
trade folks aren't the best at managing their finances.

I have cousin who spent many years working for a landscaping company.
He would make great money during the summer, and then only got paid in
the winter when it snowed and he could plow. He always spent the winter
crying poor and could never afford anything. I helped him with his
taxes one year, and found he was making more than I was at his age by
about $10K. His problem was not being able to budget properly...

That's something that also isn't being taught in High School any
longer unless you take accounting electives.
They are so busy teaching politically correct courses that they do not
really teach any life skills these days. Manual arts, shop or whatever
you want to call it has pretty much gone away unless you are in a
vo-tech and the good old "Home Ec" is gone completely. We have a
couple generations of kids who do not even know how to feed
themselves. They have to call someone to find a tripped breaker.
There are plenty of people, even our age, who do not have a clue about
money management. I can't believe the number of baby boomers who are
thinking about retirement and they still have a mortgage, credit card
debt and a car payment.
My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's
truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His
fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet
was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to
WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.

He's lucky it was only $75!

According to him it was a guy who's been doing his plumbing work for a
long time. Hell, it couldn't
have taken more than 15 minutes to put in a new flush valve.


And how much time for travel, and government required bookkeeping?

No idea. Probably got cash. Saves on the bookkeeping.

On 3/11/2017 1:51 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 10:16:25 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:

Wrote in message:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 16:05:27 -0500, Poco Deplorevole
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/10/2017 3:34 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:


My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

I hate plumbing crap also, but I've outgrown my fear of toilets. Everything is right there, if the
shutoff valve works. That's sometimes a problem because folks don't open and close the valve and it
gets stuck. So, go close and open your toilet valves right now. The rest is easy, unless the wax
ring is leaking. I've replaced one, but it's a PITA.

Plumbing has never been a problem for me. I did all of it in both
bathroom remodels including the underground. One involved plumbing in
a wall hanging toilet.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/new%20room/Plumbing.jpg


Plumbing is ALWAYS a problem. All but the most routine jobs
require at least 3 trips to Ace hardware.

I have a pretty extensive supply of parts and my neighbor has more PVC
stuff than me. Most of the plumbing is plastic here these days so you
are just pasting pipe.
When Builder's Square was going out of business, I was there on the
last day and they announced the people in the store could have all you
can get in a basket for $25. I went to the electrical aisle and the
plumbing aisle and loaded up. I got all sorts of strange adapters so I
am pretty much ready for anything. I pushed the cart up to the racks
and stripped off all of the bubble packs into the cart. I ended up
with all sorts of cool stuff.
I took a lot of stuff out of the box so I could get more in the cart.
It may have been the most fun I have ever had shopping.



I have an extensive supply of toilet flapper valves that didn't fit.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 14:36:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/11/2017 1:51 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 10:16:25 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:

Wrote in message:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 16:05:27 -0500, Poco Deplorevole
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/10/2017 3:34 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:


My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

I hate plumbing crap also, but I've outgrown my fear of toilets. Everything is right there, if the
shutoff valve works. That's sometimes a problem because folks don't open and close the valve and it
gets stuck. So, go close and open your toilet valves right now. The rest is easy, unless the wax
ring is leaking. I've replaced one, but it's a PITA.

Plumbing has never been a problem for me. I did all of it in both
bathroom remodels including the underground. One involved plumbing in
a wall hanging toilet.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/new%20room/Plumbing.jpg


Plumbing is ALWAYS a problem. All but the most routine jobs
require at least 3 trips to Ace hardware.

I have a pretty extensive supply of parts and my neighbor has more PVC
stuff than me. Most of the plumbing is plastic here these days so you
are just pasting pipe.
When Builder's Square was going out of business, I was there on the
last day and they announced the people in the store could have all you
can get in a basket for $25. I went to the electrical aisle and the
plumbing aisle and loaded up. I got all sorts of strange adapters so I
am pretty much ready for anything. I pushed the cart up to the racks
and stripped off all of the bubble packs into the cart. I ended up
with all sorts of cool stuff.
I took a lot of stuff out of the box so I could get more in the cart.
It may have been the most fun I have ever had shopping.



I have an extensive supply of toilet flapper valves that didn't fit.


I always take the old one with me.

On 3/11/17 1:51 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 10:16:25 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:

Wrote in message:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 16:05:27 -0500, Poco Deplorevole
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/10/2017 3:34 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:


My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

I hate plumbing crap also, but I've outgrown my fear of toilets. Everything is right there, if the
shutoff valve works. That's sometimes a problem because folks don't open and close the valve and it
gets stuck. So, go close and open your toilet valves right now. The rest is easy, unless the wax
ring is leaking. I've replaced one, but it's a PITA.

Plumbing has never been a problem for me. I did all of it in both
bathroom remodels including the underground. One involved plumbing in
a wall hanging toilet.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/new%20room/Plumbing.jpg


Plumbing is ALWAYS a problem. All but the most routine jobs
require at least 3 trips to Ace hardware.

I have a pretty extensive supply of parts and my neighbor has more PVC
stuff than me. Most of the plumbing is plastic here these days so you
are just pasting pipe.
When Builder's Square was going out of business, I was there on the
last day and they announced the people in the store could have all you
can get in a basket for $25. I went to the electrical aisle and the
plumbing aisle and loaded up. I got all sorts of strange adapters so I
am pretty much ready for anything. I pushed the cart up to the racks
and stripped off all of the bubble packs into the cart. I ended up
with all sorts of cool stuff.
I took a lot of stuff out of the box so I could get more in the cart.
It may have been the most fun I have ever had shopping.



I've replaced a toilet and removed and reinstalled a toilet for a
redecorating job, and that sort of low-level plumbing work, but I won't
mess with the gas appliances. When my gas water heater was misbehaving,
I called a friend at the local and he sent an apprentice out that
afternoon who took out and cleaned some parts in the bottom of the
heater that took care of the problem. Cost me $35 and a lunch. The gas
line install on the second fireplace was handled by my gas supplier, who
dispatched two union plumbers who did the piping and connection job so
the county inspector could come by the next day. That work cost me $100
or so added onto my monthly propane delivery bill.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 14:36:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/11/2017 1:51 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 10:16:25 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:

Wrote in message:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 16:05:27 -0500, Poco Deplorevole
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/10/2017 3:34 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:


My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

I hate plumbing crap also, but I've outgrown my fear of toilets. Everything is right there, if the
shutoff valve works. That's sometimes a problem because folks don't open and close the valve and it
gets stuck. So, go close and open your toilet valves right now. The rest is easy, unless the wax
ring is leaking. I've replaced one, but it's a PITA.

Plumbing has never been a problem for me. I did all of it in both
bathroom remodels including the underground. One involved plumbing in
a wall hanging toilet.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/new%20room/Plumbing.jpg


Plumbing is ALWAYS a problem. All but the most routine jobs
require at least 3 trips to Ace hardware.

I have a pretty extensive supply of parts and my neighbor has more PVC
stuff than me. Most of the plumbing is plastic here these days so you
are just pasting pipe.
When Builder's Square was going out of business, I was there on the
last day and they announced the people in the store could have all you
can get in a basket for $25. I went to the electrical aisle and the
plumbing aisle and loaded up. I got all sorts of strange adapters so I
am pretty much ready for anything. I pushed the cart up to the racks
and stripped off all of the bubble packs into the cart. I ended up
with all sorts of cool stuff.
I took a lot of stuff out of the box so I could get more in the cart.
It may have been the most fun I have ever had shopping.



I have an extensive supply of toilet flapper valves that didn't fit.

All of the toilets I have had in decades used proprietary parts so I
never buy generic parts. The Kohler was really picky about stuff and I
finally put it out on the curb. It was a model on the bleeding edge of
the 1.6 gallon flush and it never worked right.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 14:55:35 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:


I won't
mess with the gas appliances. When my gas water heater was misbehaving,
I called a friend at the local and he sent an apprentice out that
afternoon who took out and cleaned some parts in the bottom of the
heater that took care of the problem. Cost me $35 and a lunch. The gas
line install on the second fireplace was handled by my gas supplier, who
dispatched two union plumbers who did the piping and connection job so
the county inspector could come by the next day. That work cost me $100
or so added onto my monthly propane delivery bill.

When I was up there, WG&L provided most gas work for free. I had a bad
burner valve on my stove and they sent a guy out. I had a new one for
him to use but he said he had one on the truck.

On 3/11/2017 11:30 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 14:36:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/11/2017 1:51 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 10:16:25 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:

Wrote in message:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 16:05:27 -0500, Poco Deplorevole
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:51:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/10/2017 3:34 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:


My neighbor, about 35 years old, one generation down, had a plumber's truck in his driveway this
morning. We had a cup of coffee later, and I asked what happened. His fill valve was leaking around
the sides and no water was going into the overflow tube as the toilet was filling. He spent $75
getting a new fill valve installed. I asked why he didn't just go to WalMart and buy a new valve for
$10. He didn't know that was possible.

I guess that kind of proves your point.


I'll tackle most DIY repairs or projects *except* anything to do with
water and plumbing. Too many bad experiences and frustrations. I'll
hire a plumber even if it's only to replace the flapper valve in the
toilet. :-)

I hate plumbing crap also, but I've outgrown my fear of toilets. Everything is right there, if the
shutoff valve works. That's sometimes a problem because folks don't open and close the valve and it
gets stuck. So, go close and open your toilet valves right now. The rest is easy, unless the wax
ring is leaking. I've replaced one, but it's a PITA.

Plumbing has never been a problem for me. I did all of it in both
bathroom remodels including the underground. One involved plumbing in
a wall hanging toilet.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/new%20room/Plumbing.jpg


Plumbing is ALWAYS a problem. All but the most routine jobs
require at least 3 trips to Ace hardware.

I have a pretty extensive supply of parts and my neighbor has more PVC
stuff than me. Most of the plumbing is plastic here these days so you
are just pasting pipe.
When Builder's Square was going out of business, I was there on the
last day and they announced the people in the store could have all you
can get in a basket for $25. I went to the electrical aisle and the
plumbing aisle and loaded up. I got all sorts of strange adapters so I
am pretty much ready for anything. I pushed the cart up to the racks
and stripped off all of the bubble packs into the cart. I ended up
with all sorts of cool stuff.
I took a lot of stuff out of the box so I could get more in the cart.
It may have been the most fun I have ever had shopping.



I have an extensive supply of toilet flapper valves that didn't fit.

All of the toilets I have had in decades used proprietary parts so I
never buy generic parts. The Kohler was really picky about stuff and I
finally put it out on the curb. It was a model on the bleeding edge of
the 1.6 gallon flush and it never worked right.



The last toilet flapper I tried to replace was for a Kohler. Lowes had
OEM replacements as well as at least two aftermarket replacements for
that particular toilet. Bought the OEM figuring how could I possibly go
wrong? The OEM didn't work. It leaked despite all my attempts to clean
the flange it was supposed to seal to and despite all
my attempts to adjust it. Ended up breaking one of the rubber "arms".
Back to Lowes ... bought one each of some aftermarket types. First
didn't fit at all. Second one fit and worked. Decided to sell the
house after that. House had 6 bathrooms. :-)