On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 00:20:28 GMT, Rick wrote:

Steven Shelikoff wrote:

The wheel.

The area of the wheel exposed to the gas is so small compared to the
area of the tire producing the heat that I doubt it has much of any
practical value in dissipation of heat above and beyond air flow over
and radiation from the tire itself.

Actually, the area of the wheel exposed to the gas in a race car tire is
pretty large compared to the area of the tire since they are wide and
low profile. A narrow, high profile trailer tire doesn't have very much
wheel exposed to the gas for the amount of tire area producing heat.

Though it doesn't apply much to boat trailer tires, the heat
conductivity of the gas would work against tire cooling in the case of
race cars and aircraft since it would serve to increase the rate of tire
heating in heavy brake application. Many aircraft tire failures are due

Of course it all depends on the type of racing. During most racing like
road racing, twisty corners, etc, heavy braking is applied but for very
short durations. Superspeedway racing, not at all. There's plenty of
cooling air ducted to the brakes and the rest of the suspension
components can also act like a heat sink since they are directly
attached to the brakes and wheel. On the other hand, the tires are
always generating heat whenever the car is moving, and especially in
turns. Heat is the enemy of tire life and whatever can be done to take
away more heat from the tire will help. That being said, I sure
wouldn't want hydrogen in my tires.

to overheated brakes, heating the wheels to the point of causing the
tires to blow out or burn, not from heat generated by the tires themselves.

Slowing a 747 from 180 mph to taxi speed is hardly the same thing as
bleeding off 40 or 50 mph from a super light race car. There's a whole
different set of braking requirements, and aircraft brakes are in many
cases under engineered since they depend so much on engine braking to
slow down.

Steve

Steven Shelikoff, the racing expert wrote:


Actually, the area of the wheel exposed to the gas in a race car tire is
pretty large compared to the area of the tire since they are wide and
low profile.

Not in all types of racing. Actually, in some types, the narrower the
better, less contact area, less friction. Take a salt flat racer, for
instance.



Though it doesn't apply much to boat trailer tires, the heat
conductivity of the gas would work against tire cooling in the case of
race cars and aircraft since it would serve to increase the rate of tire
heating in heavy brake application. Many aircraft tire failures are due

Of course it all depends on the type of racing. During most racing like
road racing, twisty corners, etc, heavy braking is applied but for very
short durations. Superspeedway racing, not at all.

Are you really trying to say that on superspeedways, they don't use
brakes at all? That's pretty stupid. They actually use brakes as
opposed to letting off the throttle, trying to keep the enginer RPM's
up. It takes forever to get those restictor plate engines back up to
speed. They do, however, use completely different brake setups,
smaller rotors, pads. These smaller, thinner rotors will get quite
hot, quite quickly.

There's plenty of
cooling air ducted to the brakes and the rest of the suspension
components can also act like a heat sink since they are directly
attached to the brakes and wheel. On the other hand, the tires are
always generating heat whenever the car is moving, and especially in
turns. Heat is the enemy of tire life and whatever can be done to take
away more heat from the tire will help. That being said, I sure
wouldn't want hydrogen in my tires.

Now that I can agree with.

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

They actually use brakes as
opposed to letting off the throttle, trying to keep the enginer RPM's
up. It takes forever to get those restictor plate engines back up to
speed.

Can you explain that statement?

Unless your referring to the go karts you rent at the amusment center I
don't understand how you can maintain engine RPMs and slow the car down.

Automatic transmission?? Hmmmm..... Seen it on off road cars, I wasn't
aware of it being very common on any sort of track or pavement vehicles.

Without some sort of a slip clutch or torque converter, the engine RPM is
going to be directly related to the velocity of the car.

Rod

"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

They actually use brakes as
opposed to letting off the throttle, trying to keep the enginer RPM's
up. It takes forever to get those restictor plate engines back up to
speed.

Can you explain that statement?

Unless your referring to the go karts you rent at the amusment center I
don't understand how you can maintain engine RPMs and slow the car down.

Automatic transmission?? Hmmmm..... Seen it on off road cars, I wasn't
aware of it being very common on any sort of track or pavement vehicles.

Without some sort of a slip clutch or torque converter, the engine RPM is
going to be directly related to the velocity of the car.

Rod

He is confused. Brakes are noy used at the 2 NASCAR restrictor plate tracks
(Daytona & Talladega). They simply run wide open through the turns on these
tracks since there is enough banking (30 degrees) that they do not have to
back off at all.

On 3 Nov 2003 05:02:04 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

Steven Shelikoff, the racing expert wrote:


Actually, the area of the wheel exposed to the gas in a race car tire is
pretty large compared to the area of the tire since they are wide and
low profile.

Not in all types of racing. Actually, in some types, the narrower the
better, less contact area, less friction. Take a salt flat racer, for
instance.

Yeah, and bicycle racing.

Though it doesn't apply much to boat trailer tires, the heat
conductivity of the gas would work against tire cooling in the case of
race cars and aircraft since it would serve to increase the rate of tire
heating in heavy brake application. Many aircraft tire failures are due

Of course it all depends on the type of racing. During most racing like
road racing, twisty corners, etc, heavy braking is applied but for very
short durations. Superspeedway racing, not at all.

Are you really trying to say that on superspeedways, they don't use
brakes at all? That's pretty stupid. They actually use brakes as
opposed to letting off the throttle, trying to keep the enginer RPM's
up. It takes forever to get those restictor plate engines back up to
speed. They do, however, use completely different brake setups,
smaller rotors, pads. These smaller, thinner rotors will get quite
hot, quite quickly.

Sorry to dissapoint you but at NASCAR restrictor plate races like at
Talladega and Daytona, the driver will almost without exception have
the gas pedal to the floor and not touch the brakes all day. They even
tape up the brake vents for more downforce since there's little need to
cool the brakes. When they actually do need the brakes, like to stop in
their pit, they are so bad that they often lock up and skid. That's why
you see drivers overshoot their pit more often on the restrictor plate
races, because the brakes are so touchy. It's done that way to save
unsprung weight and lower friction.

That's the exact opposite from short track and road course races where
they use the brakes so much that they need blowers to cool the them
since the vents don't provide enough cooling. They use a beefy braking
setup for those races since they have twice the power available so
there's much more to overcome braking losses, and they really need the
brakes.

Steve

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 3 Nov 2003 05:02:04 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

Steven Shelikoff, the racing expert wrote:


Actually, the area of the wheel exposed to the gas in a race car tire is
pretty large compared to the area of the tire since they are wide and
low profile.

Not in all types of racing. Actually, in some types, the narrower the
better, less contact area, less friction. Take a salt flat racer, for
instance.

Yeah, and bicycle racing.

Though it doesn't apply much to boat trailer tires, the heat
conductivity of the gas would work against tire cooling in the case of
race cars and aircraft since it would serve to increase the rate of tire
heating in heavy brake application. Many aircraft tire failures are due

Of course it all depends on the type of racing. During most racing like
road racing, twisty corners, etc, heavy braking is applied but for very
short durations. Superspeedway racing, not at all.

Are you really trying to say that on superspeedways, they don't use
brakes at all? That's pretty stupid. They actually use brakes as
opposed to letting off the throttle, trying to keep the enginer RPM's
up. It takes forever to get those restictor plate engines back up to
speed. They do, however, use completely different brake setups,
smaller rotors, pads. These smaller, thinner rotors will get quite
hot, quite quickly.

Sorry to dissapoint you but at NASCAR restrictor plate races like at
Talladega and Daytona, the driver will almost without exception have
the gas pedal to the floor and not touch the brakes all day.

Pure horse****!!!!! They do, indeed, keep the throttle wide open, but
they DO use the brakes, and quite a lot. They use the brakes as
opposed to letting up on the throttle when drafting, to avoid loosing
engine rpms from what is commonly refered to as "lifting". So, to say
that they "not touch the brakes all day" is, again, false.

They even
tape up the brake vents for more downforce since there's little need to
cool the brakes.

Actually, almost all teams don't even use brake ducting on
superspeedways, if that is what you mean by "brake vents".

That's the exact opposite from short track and road course races where
they use the brakes so much that they need blowers to cool the them
since the vents don't provide enough cooling. They use a beefy braking
setup for those races since they have twice the power available so
there's much more to overcome braking losses, and they really need the
brakes.

Steve

The "beefy" brakes are because they have to slow the car from say,
130mph in the straight at Bristol, down to 60mph in turns 1 and 2, in
the shortest amount of time. It's all about being able to hold that
130mph until the last possible moment, slamming on the brakes until
the car takes a "set" (meaning it goes from pushing, or understeer, to
loose, or oversteer.), then being able to get back into the throttle.
Of course, I'm sure, you are an expert, as always!!!!
Oh, and your Nascar tire diatribe is wrong, and stupid.

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

Pure horse****!!!!! They do, indeed, keep the throttle wide open, but
they DO use the brakes, and quite a lot. They use the brakes as
opposed to letting up on the throttle when drafting, to avoid loosing
engine rpms from what is commonly refered to as "lifting".


I ask you again: What type of connection do they use between the engine and
the wheels that allows the engine RPMs to stay high while the car slows
down?

Rod

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:11:13 -0800, "Rod McInnis"
wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
. com...

Pure horse****!!!!! They do, indeed, keep the throttle wide open, but
they DO use the brakes, and quite a lot. They use the brakes as
opposed to letting up on the throttle when drafting, to avoid loosing
engine rpms from what is commonly refered to as "lifting".


I ask you again: What type of connection do they use between the engine and
the wheels that allows the engine RPMs to stay high while the car slows
down?

He's full of crap as usual. They do use the brakes without lifting off
the gas pedal but not to avoid loosing engine rpms. It avoids the short
time lag in getting power back if you lift off the pedal. It also
avoids abrupt changes in handling and suspension geometry that you get
when you lift off the gas pedal, which shifts the front/rear weight
distribution around.

Steve

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...

They do use the brakes without lifting off
the gas pedal but not to avoid loosing engine rpms. It avoids the short
time lag in getting power back if you lift off the pedal.

Yeah, I know.

It is especially common on cars that use a turbo charger as it will keep the
exhaust manifold hot and the turbo spun up so they can have maximum boost
when they really need it. I am sure it gets carried over to normally
aspirated engines just because the drivers get into a habit and don't want
to break it.

I was just pushing basskisser to see if he could apply any amount of reason
to anything he says. He seems to get a little bit of knowledge and applies
it all wrong. The RPMs high while the car slows down was just so obvious an
error, yet he repeated the statement multiple times even after being
challenged.

Rod

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:11:13 -0800, "Rod McInnis"
wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
. com...

Pure horse****!!!!! They do, indeed, keep the throttle wide open, but
they DO use the brakes, and quite a lot. They use the brakes as
opposed to letting up on the throttle when drafting, to avoid loosing
engine rpms from what is commonly refered to as "lifting".


I ask you again: What type of connection do they use between the engine and
the wheels that allows the engine RPMs to stay high while the car slows
down?

He's full of crap as usual. They do use the brakes without lifting off
the gas pedal but not to avoid loosing engine rpms. It avoids the short
time lag in getting power back if you lift off the pedal. It also
avoids abrupt changes in handling and suspension geometry that you get
when you lift off the gas pedal, which shifts the front/rear weight
distribution around.

Steve

You're stupidity is showing again. Using the brakes does anything BUT
"avoid abrupt changes in handling....." In racing circles, it's
commonly refered to as "taking a set", when you are ram rodding into a
corner, the car tends to push, braking allows the car to "take a set",
which actually makes the car a little loose, but loose is fast, to a
point. Now, are you really saying that lifting the throttle shifts the
front to rear weight, but braking does not???!!!!!! By the way, the
driver can adjust brake bias from his seat, just a turn of the knob.