Rick wrote in message link.net...
Mark Browne wrote:


Now you have my curiosity!

I understand all gases to expand about 1/270 per degree C at room
temperature.

Please explain how now nitrogen and oxygen differ?

This should be a good one ... but don't hold your breath waiting for a
response. I am just amazed that he doesn't just look up the gas laws and
see for himself. Bizarre.

Bass posted this and I haven't heard from him since I answered him, so
if you attempt to explain it to him maybe he will finally just go away.

You apparently don't know squat about the Laws of Gases.
Now, Im again telling you that the ONLY reason is that
the pressure to temperature ratio is more linear.
Do you refute that? If so, do tell why. Now, I suspect that
you don't UNDERSTAND my answer, and that is the reason that
you don't think it's correct. So, allow me to explain.
The nitrogen doesn't expand as much as air, for a given
temperature change.

The level of scientific illiteracy in this country is frightening when
you see it defended so hotly by those with the smallest armory.

Rick

Yes, I agree, the level of scientific illiteracy is frightening. Here
you go, and Shelikoff, can you read this and comment??

There are several properties of gasses that can easily be demonstrated
using liquid nitrogen. These properties include phase changes (gas to
liquid, liquid to gas, and visa versa), and the temperature dependence
of volume. If you have a volunteer blow up a clear balloon, you can
show how a gas (oxygen) can go from gas to liquid. Oxygen has a
boiling point of -180o C, so when the balloon containing oxygen from
someone's breath is submerged in the liquid nitrogen the oxygen is
cooled to below its boiling point and it begins to condense. There is
usually some water vapor present in this balloon also- under good
conditions, the water vapor will condense to liquid and then freeze,
thus going through two phase changes. You can also discuss the
kinetics involved in the balloons expanding when they are removed from
the liquid nitrogen and begin to return to room temperature. Notice
how the lighter gasses do not constrict as much since the boiling
points of hydrogen and helium are both lower than that of nitrogen.
You may also notice though that they will also expand a bit faster
than the heavier gasses. The differences in the expansion rate becomes
even more obvious if argon is available. Argon has a very small
difference between the freezing point and boiling point (4o C) thus an
argon filled balloon will expand very rapidly. Compare this to a
breath filled balloon or a balloon filled with a gas such as ethane
(95o C difference between freezing and boiling points).

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
Rick wrote in message
link.net...
Mark Browne wrote:


Now you have my curiosity!

I understand all gases to expand about 1/270 per degree C at room
temperature.

Please explain how now nitrogen and oxygen differ?

This should be a good one ... but don't hold your breath waiting for a
response. I am just amazed that he doesn't just look up the gas laws and
see for himself. Bizarre.

Bass posted this and I haven't heard from him since I answered him, so
if you attempt to explain it to him maybe he will finally just go away.

You apparently don't know squat about the Laws of Gases.
Now, Im again telling you that the ONLY reason is that
the pressure to temperature ratio is more linear.
Do you refute that? If so, do tell why. Now, I suspect that
you don't UNDERSTAND my answer, and that is the reason that
you don't think it's correct. So, allow me to explain.
The nitrogen doesn't expand as much as air, for a given
temperature change.

The level of scientific illiteracy in this country is frightening when
you see it defended so hotly by those with the smallest armory.

Rick

Yes, I agree, the level of scientific illiteracy is frightening. Here
you go, and Shelikoff, can you read this and comment??

There are several properties of gasses that can easily be demonstrated
using liquid nitrogen. These properties include phase changes (gas to
liquid, liquid to gas, and visa versa), and the temperature dependence
of volume. If you have a volunteer blow up a clear balloon, you can
show how a gas (oxygen) can go from gas to liquid. Oxygen has a
boiling point of -180o C, so when the balloon containing oxygen from
someone's breath is submerged in the liquid nitrogen the oxygen is
cooled to below its boiling point and it begins to condense. There is
usually some water vapor present in this balloon also- under good
conditions, the water vapor will condense to liquid and then freeze,
thus going through two phase changes. You can also discuss the
kinetics involved in the balloons expanding when they are removed from
the liquid nitrogen and begin to return to room temperature. Notice
how the lighter gasses do not constrict as much since the boiling
points of hydrogen and helium are both lower than that of nitrogen.
You may also notice though that they will also expand a bit faster
than the heavier gasses. The differences in the expansion rate becomes
even more obvious if argon is available. Argon has a very small
difference between the freezing point and boiling point (4o C) thus an
argon filled balloon will expand very rapidly. Compare this to a
breath filled balloon or a balloon filled with a gas such as ethane
(95o C difference between freezing and boiling points).

Rick and I just worked this out for water. In a race car tire that reaches
225 F to 250 F during normal operation, there *is* a phase change in water,
from liquid to vapor. The newly introduced water vapor can add a significant
component to the partial pressure composition of the tire. The only thing
left here is to determine how much liquid water might be found inside a tire
in different settings.

Now in the temperature range of interest, operating tire temperatures, are
any of the materials you mention (Nitrogen, Argon, Oxygen) undergoing any
phase changes?
If not, do they show any appreciable deviation from the ideal gas properties
in the temperature range of interest?

If not, suck it up and move on.

Mark Browne
P. S. You would not be doing a Jax here, would you? That is, trying to
define the problem in such a narrow way as to give yourself a little wiggle
room. This is not necessarily a bad thing - some us miss toying with Jax!

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:55:55 GMT, "Mark Browne"
wrote:

Rick and I just worked this out for water. In a race car tire that reaches
225 F to 250 F during normal operation, there *is* a phase change in water,
from liquid to vapor. The newly introduced water vapor can add a significant
component to the partial pressure composition of the tire. The only thing
left here is to determine how much liquid water might be found inside a tire
in different settings.

If there's any liquid water in the race tire/wheel at all, the tire
filler and wheel balancer should be fired. At the speed those tires
rotate, even a small amount of liquid water (say a few grams) would be
noticed as a vibration because the tire would be out of balance. It
doesn't get spread evenly around the inside of the tire.

Now in the temperature range of interest, operating tire temperatures, are
any of the materials you mention (Nitrogen, Argon, Oxygen) undergoing any
phase changes?
If not, do they show any appreciable deviation from the ideal gas properties
in the temperature range of interest?

It's pressure as well as temperature that would cause them to deviate
from ideal gas properties. And the pressures are not high enough.
Typically, you have to go above around 150 psi to notice any deviation
from the ideal gas laws. You have to go much higher than that for it to
have any appreciable effect.

As far as temperature is concerned, they deviate from ideal gas
properties at very low temperatures, temps near the phase change to
liquid. The higher the temp, the more ideal the gas behaves. If you're
only a few degress away from the phase change, you won't notice any
deviation from the ideal gas laws..

There is one other way a gas can deviate from the gas laws, and that's
at very small volumes. But the container must be so small that the
volume of the gas molecules themselves must be a significant portion of
the container. That is not the case with a tire.

If not, suck it up and move on.

Mark Browne
P. S. You would not be doing a Jax here, would you? That is, trying to
define the problem in such a narrow way as to give yourself a little wiggle
room. This is not necessarily a bad thing - some us miss toying with Jax!

At first, I thought he was Jax. But Jax at least had the courtesy to
confine the things he was wrong about to on-topic subjects. This idiot
is all over the spectrum.

Steve

On 31 Oct 2003 04:52:56 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

Rick wrote in message link.net...
Mark Browne wrote:


Now you have my curiosity!

I understand all gases to expand about 1/270 per degree C at room
temperature.

Please explain how now nitrogen and oxygen differ?

This should be a good one ... but don't hold your breath waiting for a
response. I am just amazed that he doesn't just look up the gas laws and
see for himself. Bizarre.

Bass posted this and I haven't heard from him since I answered him, so
if you attempt to explain it to him maybe he will finally just go away.

You apparently don't know squat about the Laws of Gases.
Now, Im again telling you that the ONLY reason is that
the pressure to temperature ratio is more linear.
Do you refute that? If so, do tell why. Now, I suspect that
you don't UNDERSTAND my answer, and that is the reason that
you don't think it's correct. So, allow me to explain.
The nitrogen doesn't expand as much as air, for a given
temperature change.

The level of scientific illiteracy in this country is frightening when
you see it defended so hotly by those with the smallest armory.

Rick

Yes, I agree, the level of scientific illiteracy is frightening. Here
you go, and Shelikoff, can you read this and comment??

Sure.

There are several properties of gasses that can easily be demonstrated
using liquid nitrogen. These properties include phase changes (gas to

First problem is that you're using *liquid* nitrogen to demonstrate a
property of nitrogen gas. It's properties as a liquid and during the
phase change to gas is absolutely and completely irrevelant to it's
pressure/temperature/volume relationship in it's gasous state.

And since we're talking about air vs. nitrogen in a tire, they are both
gasses and not liquids. Even the water *vapor* in the air is a gas and
has the same pressure/temperature/volume relationship as nitrogen, as
long as the vapor doesn't condense. And if you are at all careful about
limiting the amount of water in your compressed air, it shouldn't
condense.

liquid, liquid to gas, and visa versa), and the temperature dependence
of volume. If you have a volunteer blow up a clear balloon, you can
show how a gas (oxygen) can go from gas to liquid. Oxygen has a
boiling point of -180o C, so when the balloon containing oxygen from
someone's breath is submerged in the liquid nitrogen the oxygen is
cooled to below its boiling point and it begins to condense. There is
usually some water vapor present in this balloon also- under good
conditions, the water vapor will condense to liquid and then freeze,
thus going through two phase changes. You can also discuss the
kinetics involved in the balloons expanding when they are removed from
the liquid nitrogen and begin to return to room temperature. Notice
how the lighter gasses do not constrict as much since the boiling
points of hydrogen and helium are both lower than that of nitrogen.
You may also notice though that they will also expand a bit faster
than the heavier gasses. The differences in the expansion rate becomes

No, you won't notice that hydrongen and helium will expand a bit faster
than the heavier gasses. Because they don't.

even more obvious if argon is available. Argon has a very small
difference between the freezing point and boiling point (4o C) thus an
argon filled balloon will expand very rapidly. Compare this to a

Neither will Argon. As long as you keep the temperature above it's
boiling point, it will expand just as fast as any other gas as you raise
the temperature further.

breath filled balloon or a balloon filled with a gas such as ethane
(95o C difference between freezing and boiling points).

You're understanding of physics is abysmal if you think that because
different substances have different PVT relationships during a phase
change means they will not follow the gas laws, which say they will have
the same PVT relationship as a gas.

The fact that you're trying to demonstrate that gasses do not follow the
gas laws (which is a necessity if you want to claim that a racing tire
filled with nitrogen has a more linear temperature pressure curve than
one filled with air) by using a phase change argument is specious at
best.

Steve

basskisser wrote:

Yes, I agree, the level of scientific illiteracy is frightening. Here
you go, and Shelikoff, can you read this and comment??

There are several properties of gasses that can easily be demonstrated
using liquid nitrogen. These properties include phase changes (gas to
liquid, liquid to gas, and visa versa)

There isn't much new that can be added to your posts on this subject. I
first thought you were just argumentative and not too bright but now I
see that you are both argumentative and really stupid as well as curse
with a very short attention span and an obvious learning disability.

If you will reread or have someone read to you my post of October 28 at
8:56am message ID . net
you may gain a glimpse of the fact that this has already been pointed
out as a possibility for your inability to comprehend the subject.

Here it is again just in case you can't find the original.

------------------------------


I think most of this nonsense about nitrogen in tires not expanding as
much as air comes from the fact that few people really understand the
properties of gases. There is a little phrase in the gas laws that
refers to "phase change" ... that is where the followers of the myth may
be running aground - (boating content).

Liquid nitrogen will vaporize to produce a volume of gas that occupies
about 700 times that of the liquid. Liquid oxygen will vaporize to
produce a gas that occupies around 860 times the volume.

Vaporization is the phase change. Once the liquid has evaporated the
resultant gas, nitrogen, oxygen, or water vapor, will follow the gas
laws and when the correct law is applied (there are several) the
properties of those gases are very predictable and if you understood
them you would see that the properties of those gases are identical in
their behavior under the conditions which race car teams and trailer
boaters operate.

-------------------------------


I give up Basskisser, it has become obvious you are not really
interested in learning anything but are simply looking for a fight,
trolling, or just too thick to benefit from a discussion in which you
are ill equipped to participate.


Rick

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

There are several properties of gasses that can easily be demonstrated
using liquid nitrogen.

As I clearly stated, the ideal gas laws apply as long as you are NOT
operating in the temperature/pressure ranges that will result in a phase
change for the elements involved. For the pressure and temperature that a
tire will be exposed to the gas laws apply. Once you start talking about
liquid nitrogen we are clearly in the phase change realm.

You may also notice though that they will also expand a bit faster
than the heavier gasses.

No. They have a lower boiling point, and thus as you watch them react with
the surroundings they will start boiling sooner.
It takes a significant amount of engergy to make an element/compond change
state. Start with a mixture of elements/componds (assuming that they don't
react and form a new compond) that are all cooled below any of their boiling
points (the insertion into the liquid nitrogen) and then start adding energy
(remove it from the nitrogen, it absorbs energy from the surrounding air).
Track the temperature of the mixture over time. You will see a fairly rapid
and linear rise in temperature until it reaches a temperature where one of
the elments/componds changes state. At this point the temperature will
remain constant until all of the element has changed state. The temperature
will increase linearly again until the next state change temperature is
reached.

If you are comparing the rate at which such an experiment will inflate a
balloon, then a mixture that has an element/compond that changes state at a
lower temperature will certainly start inflating sooner and do it more
rapidly. This isn't a function of the gas, it is a function of the stage
change.

The differences in the expansion rate becomes
even more obvious if argon is available. Argon has a very small
difference between the freezing point and boiling point (4o C) thus an
argon filled balloon will expand very rapidly.


All elements/compounds expand as they transition into the gaseos state.
This is not universally true for the transition from solid to liquid. Many
elements/compounds, including water, have a "triple point", a
temperature/pressure combination that will allow all three phases to exist
at the same time. Predicting the exact expansion rates of a mixture where
multiple state changes are involved is a bit more tedious, although the
expansion between solid and liquid would be dramatically less than between
liquid/solid and gas.



Compare this to a
breath filled balloon or a balloon filled with a gas such as ethane

Stay above the boiling point of ethane and these two will behave the same.
Heat both balloons the same amount and they will both expand the same
amount.

Now, there is one characteristic that might lead you to a false conclusion,
and that is the rate at which the change occurs. If you took the two
balloons from a cool room into a warm room you might see one of the balloons
expand faster than the other. Leave them there until they reach
equilibrium, however, and they will both expand the same. This is due to
the thermal resistance. Just like aluminum heats up faster than iron.

Back to what I have been saying all along: PV=nRT. It works for the
temperatures and pressures that a tire will be operated at. It doesn't
matter what the gas is. If the volume stays constant, and you change the T
by x%, you change the pressure by x%. It is basic gas law, you should
have learned this in high school chemistry class.