"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that that nitrogen
doesn't expand at the same rate as oxygen for any given temperature
change. Do you deny this?

Yes. I deny this.

Mr. Boyle denies this. Mr. Charles denies this. Mr. Gay and Mr. Lussac
deny this. They wrote laws of physics about it. Every chemistry, physics and
thermodynamics class uses these laws. Here, don't take my word for it, let's
take a look at some of the information available from the net.

As an example:

Department of Chemistry
California State University, Sacramento
http://kekule.chem.csus.edu/gaslaws

Boyle's Law
Simply stated, Boyle's Law indicates that for a fixed amount of gas (fixed
number of moles) at a fixed temperature, the pressure and the volume are
inversely proportional.
pV = constant or p1V1 = p2V2


In other words, as the pressure increases, the volume decreases. (When you
squeeze on a balloon to increase the pressure, the volume of the balloon
goes down.)



Charles' Law
Simply stated, Charles' Law indicates that for a fixed amount of gas (fixed
number of moles) at a fixed pressure, the volume is proportional to the
temperature.

V/T = constant or V1/T1 = V2/T2


In other words, as the temperature increases, the volume increases. (When
you heat a balloon the volume of the balloon goes up.)



Gay-Lussac's Law
Simply stated, Gay-Lussac's Law indicates that for a fixed amount of gas
(fixed number of moles) at a fixed volume, the pressure is proportional to
the temperature.
p/T = constant or p1/T1 = p2/T2


In other words, as the temperature increases, the pressure increases. (When
you put a pickle jar in the refridgerator, the drop in pressure from the
trapped air becoming colder makes it hard to open the jar later!)





Note that there is no factor in these equations for the type of gas. If you
take a rigid container that contains a gas, any gas and heat it up the
pressure will increase a known and predictable amount. You double the
temperature, you double the pressure.

These three laws combine together to create the "ideal gas" law, whihc is
PV=nRT. This law relates Pressure, Volume and Temperature. Give me the
starting values, how much you changed the other two variable and I can tell
you exactly what the third variable will be. I don't need to know what the
gases are involved.

The only time that you deviate from the ideal gas law is if you reach a
pressure/temperature point where the gas might change state into a liquid.
You had some basis for an argument with water at room temperatures, but
oxygen and nitrogen are not ever going to be liquid at any pressure you are
likely to have in your tires. Air will obey the ideal gas law as long as it
isn't saturated with water vapor, and as I pointed out earlier you would
have to try hard to get saturated air into the tires.

Rod

Rod McInnis wrote:

Mr. Gay and Mr. Lussac deny this.

I don't know what those two guys contributed to the gas laws but maybe
they were related to Joseph Gay-Lussac and helped out with his balloons
or something. 8-)

Rick

Rod McInnis wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that that nitrogen
doesn't expand at the same rate as oxygen for any given temperature
change. Do you deny this?


Yes. I deny this.

Mr. Boyle denies this. Mr. Charles denies this. Mr. Gay and Mr. Lussac
deny this. They wrote laws of physics about it. Every chemistry, physics and
thermodynamics class uses these laws. Here, don't take my word for it, let's
take a look at some of the information available from the net.

As an example:

Department of Chemistry
California State University, Sacramento
http://kekule.chem.csus.edu/gaslaws

You might as well give up now. No matter how much proof you provide,
basskisser will not believe it and will find some way to weasel out,
probably by saying he answered you in some other post without being able to
show where.

The thing I find amazing is that he claims to be a structural engineer, or
something like that. A professional engineer even. He is a sad testament
to whatever college he graduated from. This is basic high school physics
that is also reempasized in first year college engineering physics. For
him to be so blatently wrong in something that is so provable that he's
wrong and still not be able to admit it is just plain sad.

Steve

Steven Shelikoff wrote in message ...
Rod McInnis wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that that nitrogen
doesn't expand at the same rate as oxygen for any given temperature
change. Do you deny this?


Yes. I deny this.

Mr. Boyle denies this. Mr. Charles denies this. Mr. Gay and Mr. Lussac
deny this. They wrote laws of physics about it. Every chemistry, physics and
thermodynamics class uses these laws. Here, don't take my word for it, let's
take a look at some of the information available from the net.

As an example:

Department of Chemistry
California State University, Sacramento
http://kekule.chem.csus.edu/gaslaws

You might as well give up now. No matter how much proof you provide,
basskisser will not believe it and will find some way to weasel out,
probably by saying he answered you in some other post without being able to
show where.

The thing I find amazing is that he claims to be a structural engineer, or
something like that. A professional engineer even. He is a sad testament
to whatever college he graduated from. This is basic high school physics
that is also reempasized in first year college engineering physics. For
him to be so blatently wrong in something that is so provable that he's
wrong and still not be able to admit it is just plain sad.

Steve


Boyles' law states that for a GIVEN GAS, the rate of expansion versus
temperature is inversely proportional. FOR A GIVEN GAS. It does not
state, however, that one gas expands as temp. increases, at the same
rate as another gas.

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
Steven Shelikoff wrote in message
...
Rod McInnis wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that that nitrogen
doesn't expand at the same rate as oxygen for any given temperature
change. Do you deny this?


Yes. I deny this.

Mr. Boyle denies this. Mr. Charles denies this. Mr. Gay and Mr.
Lussac
deny this. They wrote laws of physics about it. Every chemistry,
physics and
thermodynamics class uses these laws. Here, don't take my word for it,
let's
take a look at some of the information available from the net.

As an example:

Department of Chemistry
California State University, Sacramento
http://kekule.chem.csus.edu/gaslaws

You might as well give up now. No matter how much proof you provide,
basskisser will not believe it and will find some way to weasel out,
probably by saying he answered you in some other post without being able
to
show where.

The thing I find amazing is that he claims to be a structural engineer,
or
something like that. A professional engineer even. He is a sad
testament
to whatever college he graduated from. This is basic high school
physics
that is also reempasized in first year college engineering physics. For
him to be so blatently wrong in something that is so provable that he's
wrong and still not be able to admit it is just plain sad.

Steve


Boyles' law states that for a GIVEN GAS, the rate of expansion versus
temperature is inversely proportional. FOR A GIVEN GAS. It does not
state, however, that one gas expands as temp. increases, at the same
rate as another gas.

Ok, since you are running your class here, which law *does* state that "one
gas expands as temperature increases, at the same rate as another gas."

Mark Browne

On 31 Oct 2003 04:49:23 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

Steven Shelikoff wrote in message ...
Rod McInnis wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that that nitrogen
doesn't expand at the same rate as oxygen for any given temperature
change. Do you deny this?


Yes. I deny this.

Mr. Boyle denies this. Mr. Charles denies this. Mr. Gay and Mr. Lussac
deny this. They wrote laws of physics about it. Every chemistry, physics and
thermodynamics class uses these laws. Here, don't take my word for it, let's
take a look at some of the information available from the net.

As an example:

Department of Chemistry
California State University, Sacramento
http://kekule.chem.csus.edu/gaslaws

You might as well give up now. No matter how much proof you provide,
basskisser will not believe it and will find some way to weasel out,
probably by saying he answered you in some other post without being able to
show where.

The thing I find amazing is that he claims to be a structural engineer, or
something like that. A professional engineer even. He is a sad testament
to whatever college he graduated from. This is basic high school physics
that is also reempasized in first year college engineering physics. For
him to be so blatently wrong in something that is so provable that he's
wrong and still not be able to admit it is just plain sad.

Boyles' law states that for a GIVEN GAS, the rate of expansion versus
temperature is inversely proportional. FOR A GIVEN GAS. It does not
state, however, that one gas expands as temp. increases, at the same
rate as another gas.

Very good. Now look up Charles' Law, V1/T1=V2/T2. Then the ideal gas
law, PV=nRT. And note that at low pressures (i.e., the pressures at
which are normally inside tires) all gasses act like ideal gasses and
have the SAME pressure vs. temperature vs. volume relationship..

Your phase change argument elsewhere is complete crap if it's meant to
show that nitrogen has a different PVT relationship vs. oxygen vs. air
at the pressures we're discussing. Now, I'll be nice and give you a
hint on how you could possibly defend your statement about air having a
less linear pressure temperature relationship then nitrogen: Look up
how much more or less ideal air is vs. nitrogen.

But even that argument has a problem in that 1) both of them behave like
an ideal gas at the low pressures we're talking about, where the
molecules are still far enough apart that their attraction doesn't
change the linear relationship PV=nRT. And 2) air is mostly nitrogen
anyway. So if you put both of them at a pressure where they deviate
from the ideal gas law (a very high pressure that would blow up most
storage tanks let alone any tire) they would both deviate from the ideal
gas law almost equally.

Keep trying.

Steve