On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:59:54 -0500 (EST), fire man wrote:

Keyser Söze Wrote in message:
On 3/4/16 2:16 PM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 13:31:29 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:



Gosh, and you can't remember with whom you worked while serving your country in
Vietnam.

What a hero, Krause.
--


Not even a nice try, dickhead. Of course I remember, but no one has to
respond to your repetitive and idiotic "demands." Go **** yourself, if
you can get it up, which I doubt.



Every time someone embarrasses you with the truth, you seem to
respond with vulgarities and attempted put downs. One would
expect you, with your fine education, to be a little more clever.
Skipper could teach you a thing or two about turning a
phrase.

Or perhaps he could just tell the truth.
--

Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns!

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's
house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes?
(Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said
permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings).

Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no
building code process, they need to do their due diligence.
There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work,
even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have
this illusion of safety.


How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode
full of "modifications"?


I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be
lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog
and then there are the guns ;-)

I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with
strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are
generally more aware of their responsibilities.

There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without
a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should
require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety.

Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the
building wiring.


I have been through this process myself several times and my wife
built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is
just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to
have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector
leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a
county. He is not really looking at much.
The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed.
I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho.

I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking
for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does
good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with
his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten
to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a
cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly.


Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the
guy doing the work to never screw up.
Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work.

I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the
contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will
be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last
week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts
could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and
I bet it is getting that way again.
The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his
worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by"
inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit.

I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an
inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just
about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were
willing to play.




I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also
amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of
having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical
work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being
a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work.


I saw no bragging. Is this bragging?

"I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything."
--

Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns!

On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 02:14:07 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:54:14 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

How about a fireman who while performing his job is killed by the
failure of under-spec'd products or techniques?

firemen take that risk daily. fires ignite by a faulty whatever, even when new buildings are up to code.

It happens.

Yes, Chicago may be one of the most dangerous place for firemen to
work and they have the strictest electrical code in the nation along
with union rules that assures you have a journeyman twisting every
wire nut and pulling every wire (or at least standing there watching
an apprentice do it)

Uh oh. Now you mentioned Chicago. You'll be getting called a racist next.
--

Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns!

On 3/5/2016 6:40 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's
house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes?
(Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said
permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings).

Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no
building code process, they need to do their due diligence.
There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work,
even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have
this illusion of safety.


How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode
full of "modifications"?


I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be
lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog
and then there are the guns ;-)

I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with
strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are
generally more aware of their responsibilities.

There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without
a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should
require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety.

Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the
building wiring.


I have been through this process myself several times and my wife
built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is
just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to
have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector
leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a
county. He is not really looking at much.
The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed.
I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho.

I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking
for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does
good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with
his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten
to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a
cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly.


Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the
guy doing the work to never screw up.
Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work.

I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the
contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will
be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last
week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts
could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and
I bet it is getting that way again.
The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his
worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by"
inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit.

I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an
inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just
about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were
willing to play.




I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also
amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of
having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical
work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being
a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work.


I saw no bragging. Is this bragging?


"I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything."


Referring more to this:

"The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed."

Maybe "bragging" is the wrong word. "Boasting? perhaps? :-)

On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:19:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/5/2016 6:40 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's
house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes?
(Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said
permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings).

Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no
building code process, they need to do their due diligence.
There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work,
even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have
this illusion of safety.


How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode
full of "modifications"?


I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be
lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog
and then there are the guns ;-)

I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with
strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are
generally more aware of their responsibilities.

There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without
a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should
require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety.

Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the
building wiring.


I have been through this process myself several times and my wife
built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is
just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to
have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector
leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a
county. He is not really looking at much.
The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed.
I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho.

I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking
for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does
good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with
his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten
to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a
cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly.


Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the
guy doing the work to never screw up.
Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work.

I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the
contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will
be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last
week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts
could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and
I bet it is getting that way again.
The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his
worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by"
inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit.

I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an
inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just
about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were
willing to play.




I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also
amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of
having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical
work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being
a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work.


I saw no bragging. Is this bragging?


"I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything."


Referring more to this:

"The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed."

Maybe "bragging" is the wrong word. "Boasting? perhaps? :-)



Compare that to some of Harry's bragadacio. No comparison.

As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things
that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops.

I don't consider the sentence above to be either bragging or boasting. Just a fact.
--

Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns!

On 3/5/2016 7:30 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:19:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/5/2016 6:40 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's
house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes?
(Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said
permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings).

Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no
building code process, they need to do their due diligence.
There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work,
even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have
this illusion of safety.


How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode
full of "modifications"?


I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be
lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog
and then there are the guns ;-)

I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with
strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are
generally more aware of their responsibilities.

There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without
a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should
require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety.

Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the
building wiring.


I have been through this process myself several times and my wife
built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is
just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to
have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector
leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a
county. He is not really looking at much.
The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed.
I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho.

I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking
for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does
good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with
his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten
to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a
cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly.


Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the
guy doing the work to never screw up.
Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work.

I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the
contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will
be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last
week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts
could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and
I bet it is getting that way again.
The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his
worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by"
inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit.

I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an
inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just
about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were
willing to play.




I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also
amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of
having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical
work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being
a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work.


I saw no bragging. Is this bragging?


"I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything."


Referring more to this:

"The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed."

Maybe "bragging" is the wrong word. "Boasting? perhaps? :-)



Compare that to some of Harry's bragadacio. No comparison.

As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things
that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops.

I don't consider the sentence above to be either bragging or boasting. Just a fact.


Whatever John. I was not addressing you anyway and I am not really
interested in getting in a stupid argument with you. What's the temp
down there anyway? Shouldn't you be heading for the golf course on an
early Saturday morning?

On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:39:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/5/2016 7:30 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:19:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/5/2016 6:40 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no...


Why is that an advantage?

Because people are responsible for their own destiny?
If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business?

You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's
house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes?
(Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said
permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings).

Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no
building code process, they need to do their due diligence.
There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work,
even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have
this illusion of safety.


How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode
full of "modifications"?


I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be
lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog
and then there are the guns ;-)

I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with
strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are
generally more aware of their responsibilities.

There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without
a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should
require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety.

Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the
building wiring.


I have been through this process myself several times and my wife
built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is
just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to
have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector
leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a
county. He is not really looking at much.
The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed.
I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho.

I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking
for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does
good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with
his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten
to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a
cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly.


Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the
guy doing the work to never screw up.
Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work.

I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the
contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will
be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last
week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts
could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and
I bet it is getting that way again.
The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his
worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by"
inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit.

I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an
inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just
about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were
willing to play.




I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also
amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of
having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical
work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being
a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work.


I saw no bragging. Is this bragging?


"I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day
but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a
significant percentage of everything."


Referring more to this:

"The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at
but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them
a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed."

Maybe "bragging" is the wrong word. "Boasting? perhaps? :-)



Compare that to some of Harry's bragadacio. No comparison.

As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things
that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops.

I don't consider the sentence above to be either bragging or boasting. Just a fact.


Whatever John. I was not addressing you anyway and I am not really
interested in getting in a stupid argument with you. What's the temp
down there anyway? Shouldn't you be heading for the golf course on an
early Saturday morning?



Temp is 36. 'Chipped' my ankle bone, whatever that means. Won't be golfing for a
while. Go to the ortho guy Monday AM. Running around in a splint now.
--

Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns!

On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote:


As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things
that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops.


I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment."

On 3/5/16 7:39 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:



Whatever John. I was not addressing you anyway and I am not really
interested in getting in a stupid argument with you. What's the temp
down there anyway? Shouldn't you be heading for the golf course on an
early Saturday morning?



I've been unimpressed by the design, choice of materials, and execution
of many of the "homebrew" construction projects I've seen depicted here
in rec.boats.

On 3/5/16 8:05 AM, John H. wrote:



Temp is 36. 'Chipped' my ankle bone, whatever that means. Won't be golfing for a
while. Go to the ortho guy Monday AM. Running around in a splint now.
--

Wow...it is a hopeful sign that both you and your idiot buddy, FlaJim,
are disintegrating before our very eyes, as it were. Maybe you an "putt"
the ankle bone on the other foot.