On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:04:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.

Here's my response to your last:

Why? Because of the angle? I could be filming out my bedroom window if I so desired.

I can understand that in your case, where your back yard is not visible by anyone
standing in or on their property, that your 'expectation of privacy' is different
than mine. But, if I had a drone not over your property, there is some altitude where
I could probably see in your back yard. Would that be a violation of your 'reasonable
expectation of privacy' or voyeurism? Wonder what the MA laws state. Go to page 39:

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

"Whoever willfully photographs, videotapes or electronically surveils another person
who is nude or partially nude, with the intent to secretly conduct or hide such
activity, when the other person in such place and circumstance would have a
reasonable expectation of privacy in not being so photographed, videotaped or
electronically surveilled, and without that person's knowledge and consent, shall be
punished by imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than 2 1/2 year
s or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

If I'm using a drone, I'm not secretly conducting or hiding the activity, and there
is still the question of where is a 'reasonable expectation of privacy'. Does a back
yard fall into that category? Yours might, if surrounded by a few hundred acres of
woods, but mine sure doesn't.

[Please note, I'm not espousing the use of drones in the conduct of such activities.
I've been in the house all day, except when my wife came home at lunchtime, I'm
bored, can't work outside, can't go for a nice bike ride, so I'm playing on the
computer.]
--

Ban idiots, not guns!
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

....or standing in your upstairs bedroom taking pictures over the fence. Morally, I
agree with you. Legally, you'd have a lot of proving to do. From what I've read of
the CA law, you'd not have a legal leg to stand on. But, the law I posted was from
2009, so maybe things have changed now.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On 11/11/2015 6:51 AM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

...or standing in your upstairs bedroom taking pictures over the fence. Morally, I
agree with you. Legally, you'd have a lot of proving to do. From what I've read of
the CA law, you'd not have a legal leg to stand on. But, the law I posted was from
2009, so maybe things have changed now.

Some of the FAA regulations were changed in 2012 to cover RC aircraft
but they still do not address the issue of flying them over other
people's property and video recording.

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:20:54 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 11/11/2015 6:51 AM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

...or standing in your upstairs bedroom taking pictures over the fence. Morally, I
agree with you. Legally, you'd have a lot of proving to do. From what I've read of
the CA law, you'd not have a legal leg to stand on. But, the law I posted was from
2009, so maybe things have changed now.

Some of the FAA regulations were changed in 2012 to cover RC aircraft
but they still do not address the issue of flying them over other
people's property and video recording.



Each state has its own voyeurism laws. Doubt if the FAA will ever get involved in
that.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On 11/11/2015 1:04 PM, John H. wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:20:54 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 11/11/2015 6:51 AM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

...or standing in your upstairs bedroom taking pictures over the fence. Morally, I
agree with you. Legally, you'd have a lot of proving to do. From what I've read of
the CA law, you'd not have a legal leg to stand on. But, the law I posted was from
2009, so maybe things have changed now.

Some of the FAA regulations were changed in 2012 to cover RC aircraft
but they still do not address the issue of flying them over other
people's property and video recording.



Each state has its own voyeurism laws. Doubt if the FAA will ever get involved in
that.

I am not even talking about voyeurism. I am of the mindset that flying
a RC drone, quad, whatever at low altitudes over other people's property
should be considered a violation of their reasonable right to privacy
and should be included in RC restrictions. The fact that you don't
think it could be enforced doesn't mean the restriction shouldn't be
placed and made part of published regulations.

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:15:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 11/11/2015 1:04 PM, John H. wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:20:54 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 11/11/2015 6:51 AM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

...or standing in your upstairs bedroom taking pictures over the fence. Morally, I
agree with you. Legally, you'd have a lot of proving to do. From what I've read of
the CA law, you'd not have a legal leg to stand on. But, the law I posted was from
2009, so maybe things have changed now.

Some of the FAA regulations were changed in 2012 to cover RC aircraft
but they still do not address the issue of flying them over other
people's property and video recording.



Each state has its own voyeurism laws. Doubt if the FAA will ever get involved in
that.

I am not even talking about voyeurism. I am of the mindset that flying
a RC drone, quad, whatever at low altitudes over other people's property
should be considered a violation of their reasonable right to privacy
and should be included in RC restrictions. The fact that you don't
think it could be enforced doesn't mean the restriction shouldn't be
placed and made part of published regulations.


So it should be illegal to fly a drone over a neighboring farmer's field? Or would it
only be illegal to fly over his back yard? And if the question is privacy, how would
you know whether or not the drone had a camera? Or a first person view capability?

The mission of the FAA is 'is to provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system
in the world.'

Drones flying over back yards at low altitude pose no threat to the safety or
efficiency of the aerospace system.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:20:54 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/11/2015 6:51 AM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

...or standing in your upstairs bedroom taking pictures over the fence. Morally, I
agree with you. Legally, you'd have a lot of proving to do. From what I've read of
the CA law, you'd not have a legal leg to stand on. But, the law I posted was from
2009, so maybe things have changed now.

Some of the FAA regulations were changed in 2012 to cover RC aircraft
but they still do not address the issue of flying them over other
people's property and video recording.



I think these drones are going to open up a lot of new issues in the
law. It is hard to find any current regulations that actually apply.
Aerial photos usually came from GA aircraft that were flying at over
500 feet so air rights were not an issue and "model" planes were
generally expensive and hard enough to fly that they were dedicated
hobbyists. These things are easy enough for anyone to fly one, they
are cheap and even the cheap ones have pretty capable cameras in them.

There can really be troubling when the idea of weaponizing one comes
up.

On 11/11/15 1:26 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:20:54 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/11/2015 6:51 AM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

...or standing in your upstairs bedroom taking pictures over the fence. Morally, I
agree with you. Legally, you'd have a lot of proving to do. From what I've read of
the CA law, you'd not have a legal leg to stand on. But, the law I posted was from
2009, so maybe things have changed now.

Some of the FAA regulations were changed in 2012 to cover RC aircraft
but they still do not address the issue of flying them over other
people's property and video recording.



I think these drones are going to open up a lot of new issues in the
law. It is hard to find any current regulations that actually apply.
Aerial photos usually came from GA aircraft that were flying at over
500 feet so air rights were not an issue and "model" planes were
generally expensive and hard enough to fly that they were dedicated
hobbyists. These things are easy enough for anyone to fly one, they
are cheap and even the cheap ones have pretty capable cameras in them.

There can really be troubling when the idea of weaponizing one comes
up.



I've got the perfect anti-drone weapon. I'll just take off all my
clothes, go out on the deck, and plop down on a chaise, belly button up.
That should discourage 'em!