What could be nicer...
 

On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.

What could be nicer...
 

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:04:02 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.

Here's my response to your last:

Why? Because of the angle? I could be filming out my bedroom window if I so desired.

I can understand that in your case, where your back yard is not visible by anyone
standing in or on their property, that your 'expectation of privacy' is different
than mine. But, if I had a drone not over your property, there is some altitude where
I could probably see in your back yard. Would that be a violation of your 'reasonable
expectation of privacy' or voyeurism? Wonder what the MA laws state. Go to page 39:

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

"Whoever willfully photographs, videotapes or electronically surveils another person
who is nude or partially nude, with the intent to secretly conduct or hide such
activity, when the other person in such place and circumstance would have a
reasonable expectation of privacy in not being so photographed, videotaped or
electronically surveilled, and without that person's knowledge and consent, shall be
punished by imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than 2 1/2 year
s or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

If I'm using a drone, I'm not secretly conducting or hiding the activity, and there
is still the question of where is a 'reasonable expectation of privacy'. Does a back
yard fall into that category? Yours might, if surrounded by a few hundred acres of
woods, but mine sure doesn't.

[Please note, I'm not espousing the use of drones in the conduct of such activities.
I've been in the house all day, except when my wife came home at lunchtime, I'm
bored, can't work outside, can't go for a nice bike ride, so I'm playing on the
computer.]
--

Ban idiots, not guns!
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

What could be nicer...
 

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

What could be nicer...
 

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:15:29 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:06:46 -0500, wrote:

I suppose if it was a regular thing you would fight fire with fire.
Shoot a video with a point of reference in the shot that showed the
drone trespassing on your property and file a complaint. Realistically
your best chance would be in civil court.

You'd have to have two videos going for that point of reference. And, you'd have to
prove ownership and/or control of the drone also. That could be difficult.

It would be pretty easy where I am with a single camera. I could just
get the power lines in the shot and it would be pretty simple to
determine from the angle of the shot exactly where the drone was.
That is particularly true if I shot from inside the screen cage so you
had two coordinates in the shot.

Figuring out who's drone it is becomes the main problem with all of
the registration schemed tho. It is not like these things have
transponders or tail numbers, even if the RSW TRACON had the people to
track them. You would just have to get in the golf cart and follow it
home. These things only fly 20 or 30 minutes.

Of course I suppose I could start shooting 2" mortars at it and wait
for someone to come bitch about it. Fireworks are legal here. ;-)
Shot out of a 6' PVC pipe, you can get pretty accurate with one and
the air burst is about 100' in diameter with the right shell.
It is just scaring birds if anyone asks.

What could be nicer...
 

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

That is certainly not the way it was explained to us. You have no
expectation of privacy from a person standing in a public place or
their own property. That is why they don't have picture windows facing
the street in a locker room.
I agree the altitude provided by a drone flies in the face of what
people think as a public street but I think that in most places the
law has not caught up with the new reality
I do believe the guiding legislation may come from California or the
NYC area, just because of the celebrity connections and the money they
bring to the table.
DC has already dealt with it around the monuments using existing
federal law and the ADIZ (the FAA exclusion zone)

What could be nicer...
 

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:57:09 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.

The question is, what if you are still over your own property or the
street, shooting an oblique into the neighbor's lot.
They have to be careful or you will be telling the property appraiser
that their aerials are illegal.

What could be nicer...
 

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

....or standing in your upstairs bedroom taking pictures over the fence. Morally, I
agree with you. Legally, you'd have a lot of proving to do. From what I've read of
the CA law, you'd not have a legal leg to stand on. But, the law I posted was from
2009, so maybe things have changed now.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

What could be nicer...
 

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:08:47 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:15:29 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:06:46 -0500, wrote:

I suppose if it was a regular thing you would fight fire with fire.
Shoot a video with a point of reference in the shot that showed the
drone trespassing on your property and file a complaint. Realistically
your best chance would be in civil court.

You'd have to have two videos going for that point of reference. And, you'd have to
prove ownership and/or control of the drone also. That could be difficult.

It would be pretty easy where I am with a single camera. I could just
get the power lines in the shot and it would be pretty simple to
determine from the angle of the shot exactly where the drone was.
That is particularly true if I shot from inside the screen cage so you
had two coordinates in the shot.

Figuring out who's drone it is becomes the main problem with all of
the registration schemed tho. It is not like these things have
transponders or tail numbers, even if the RSW TRACON had the people to
track them. You would just have to get in the golf cart and follow it
home. These things only fly 20 or 30 minutes.

Of course I suppose I could start shooting 2" mortars at it and wait
for someone to come bitch about it. Fireworks are legal here. ;-)
Shot out of a 6' PVC pipe, you can get pretty accurate with one and
the air burst is about 100' in diameter with the right shell.
It is just scaring birds if anyone asks.

If you hit it, I doubt anyone would come bitching!
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

What could be nicer...
 

On 11/11/15 12:08 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:15:29 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:06:46 -0500, wrote:

I suppose if it was a regular thing you would fight fire with fire.
Shoot a video with a point of reference in the shot that showed the
drone trespassing on your property and file a complaint. Realistically
your best chance would be in civil court.

You'd have to have two videos going for that point of reference. And, you'd have to
prove ownership and/or control of the drone also. That could be difficult.

It would be pretty easy where I am with a single camera. I could just
get the power lines in the shot and it would be pretty simple to
determine from the angle of the shot exactly where the drone was.
That is particularly true if I shot from inside the screen cage so you
had two coordinates in the shot.

Figuring out who's drone it is becomes the main problem with all of
the registration schemed tho. It is not like these things have
transponders or tail numbers, even if the RSW TRACON had the people to
track them. You would just have to get in the golf cart and follow it
home. These things only fly 20 or 30 minutes.

Of course I suppose I could start shooting 2" mortars at it and wait
for someone to come bitch about it. Fireworks are legal here. ;-)
Shot out of a 6' PVC pipe, you can get pretty accurate with one and
the air burst is about 100' in diameter with the right shell.
It is just scaring birds if anyone asks.


Can't you buy a radar controlled anti-aircraft gun in Florida? :)

What could be nicer...
 

On 11/11/2015 6:51 AM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 4:57 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/10/2015 3:41 PM, John H. wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:22:38 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:48:37 -0800, Califbill billnews wrote:

I think there are laws a lot of places about filming in to neighbors
private spaces. I know here your security cameras can not film the
neighbors private areas. Front door is ok, etc.

That might just be a California thing to slow down the paparazzi


I do not know of the backyard if easily seen is a private place, but
i bet
most states have such laws. Like filming in locker rooms or public
toilets.

California's voyeurism laws on page 11:

The filming/viewing must be..." the interior of a bedroom, bathroom,
changing room,
fitting room, dressing room, or tanning booth, or the interior of any
other area in
which the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy" or
"...under or through
clothing."

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf

In this document the term 'reasonable expectation of privacy' is used
very
frequently. A clear definition of same is hard to find, but it seems
to be 'the
interior' of various types of rooms. I could not find 'back yard'
mentioned anywhere.
Does a person in their own backyard have a 'reasonable expectation of
privacy'? I
think not, but then again, it depends. If my next door neighbor has a
window facing
my back yard and can see over my fence, then I can't reasonably expect
that I won't
be observed in my back yard.

Likewise, as I have an upstairs window looking over his deck (and hot
tub) they
shouldn't 'reasonably expect the privacy' to be bathing nude.



Common sense dictates that being able to see your neighbor's backyard
from your house or property is *not* a violation of his"reasonable
expectation of privacy". Flying a remotely controlled, camera equipped
drone *over* your neighbor's property and video recording whatever is
happening certainly is, IMO.





John, I accidentally deleted the reply you made to my post (above) so I
can't reply to it directly.

All the statutes you are citing don't have anything to do with remotely
controlled drones, quads or whatever you want to call them. They were
most likely drafted and put into the laws well before the advent of of
cheap drones equipped with cameras. This is exactly the point I was
making at the beginning of this thread. The FAA has not yet determined
how to deal with this ... if they are going to deal with it at all.

It matters not if you can video record your neighbor's backyard from
your property or house. Current laws govern that. It's completely
different to purposely fly a remotely controlled drone *over* your
neighbor's property, especially to take video recordings.



You have a resonance expectation of privacy in your back yard. You know
your neighbors and may know they are not home. A drone would be in the
same category as putting a camera on a long stick and taking pictures over
the fence. Both should get jail / fine. You have your young kids mostly
naked in the wading pool. And someone reaches over the fence and snaps
pics? Legal or illegal? Most likely subject to a jury awarding huge
amounts of money to you and your kids if the photographer has assets.

...or standing in your upstairs bedroom taking pictures over the fence. Morally, I
agree with you. Legally, you'd have a lot of proving to do. From what I've read of
the CA law, you'd not have a legal leg to stand on. But, the law I posted was from
2009, so maybe things have changed now.

Some of the FAA regulations were changed in 2012 to cover RC aircraft
but they still do not address the issue of flying them over other
people's property and video recording.