On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:18:14 -0400,
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:05:38 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 10/15/15 12:49 PM, Califbill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
I watched a report on MSNBC earlier today that blew my mind.

It focused on a port in California that handles 40 percent of
our import and export shipments to and from China.

First item of surprise:

60 percent of the containers loaded with merchandise imported from
China are returned to China ... empty.

But the biggest surprise is what we are exporting *to* China in huge
qualities.

Trash.

The report showed mountains of recyclable plastic bottles, cardboard,
scrap metal and other trash items that are loaded up and set to China.
China's workers recycle it, making insulated clothing items from the
plastic bottles and cardboard and items like smartphones from the scrap
aluminum and metals, then ship them back to the USA for sale back to us.



Back in the 50's we loaded our scrap steel on scrap ships, and they towed
them to Japan for processing. I guess we are to expensive to do do any
real labor. My dad's company did a lot of the work of cutting huge holes
in the decks of ships, which was filled with scrap and then welding the
deck section back in. As well,as welding the rudder straight and the prop
shaft from turning. Seems as will be even better economically for other
countries if we keep raising minimum wages.



We always had three small "dumpster" like containers behind the boat
shop, one for iron and steel, one for aluminum, and one for
brass-bronze-copper, and these were for the busted parts of boats,
motors, scooters, trailers, et cetera, and were "saved" for the monthly
pickup by a local scrap dealer, who would take them to his yard and then
send my dad a check for whatever the agreed-upon value per pound was.
These weren't the huge dumpsters you see nowadays, but maybe a third as
big. Pistons, blocks, drive shafts, broken "pot metal", busted props not
worth repairing, fasteners, control wires stripped out of their covers,
busted wheels. In those days, the scrap metal was then loaded onto rail
cars and shipped off to smelters in the USA to be reprocessed for
materials for new parts "made in the USA." I'm sure some of it was also
shipped to foreign countries.

===

Like it or not, our environmental regs have just about put scrap
smelters out of business in this country. Many of the old ones have
turned into EPA super fund sites. Apparently steel recycles fairly
cleanly however since there are companies like Nucor that make a good
business out of it.

http://www.nucor.com/story/prologue/

Clean aluminum and copper seems to be recycled fairly efficiently too.
If you are close to the plant that actually processes the paper and
plastic, that can make sense too but down here, trucking cost makes
them much more attractive as fuel for the waste to energy incinerator
out in Buckingham.

Your observation does seem to confirm what I heard about mixed scrap
and electronics.
It is likely that they send it to a country without environmental
regulations to break it down.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:14:42 -0700, Califbill billnews wrote:

Friends of ours had last US rebar manufacturing plant. The slag has an
arsenic component. They paid huge fees to a Federally licensed dump
facility. Later, after their business had petty much been undercut by
China and they closed the facilities. (Huge shopping center now), the EPA
came after them to pay for cleanup at the EPA super fund site where the
slag had ended up. EPA ended up sucking eggs as the rebar company had
followed all the rules. EPA and government needs to also consider
financial cost as required. Black GM cars used to come from Mexico plant
as the Black paint could not be used in the US even with spray booths.

There was a problem with rebar herein the 80s. They were importing it
from Mexico and it was made from radioactive scrap.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:51:43 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


I vaguely recall my dad saying the scrap he sold to the local guy ended
up in Pittsburgh. This was in the 1950s and 1960s and early 1970s. When
my dad died, the boat store had, literally, hundreds of parts bins where
new parts for engines dating back to the late 1940s were kept. Mostly
metal parts, but some electrical, some rubber, et cetera. A friend of
the family who was the owner of a New England boat accessories and parts
operation arranged for the sale of all this stuff to a handful of active
boat dealers in Connecticut and Rhode Island and my mother ended up with
a substantial check as the proceeds. Too bad there was no eBay back
then!

That was still when they made steel in Pittsburgh.

On 10/15/2015 6:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:05:38 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 10/15/15 12:49 PM, Califbill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
I watched a report on MSNBC earlier today that blew my mind.

It focused on a port in California that handles 40 percent of
our import and export shipments to and from China.

First item of surprise:

60 percent of the containers loaded with merchandise imported from
China are returned to China ... empty.

But the biggest surprise is what we are exporting *to* China in huge
qualities.

Trash.

The report showed mountains of recyclable plastic bottles, cardboard,
scrap metal and other trash items that are loaded up and set to China.
China's workers recycle it, making insulated clothing items from the
plastic bottles and cardboard and items like smartphones from the scrap
aluminum and metals, then ship them back to the USA for sale back to us.



Back in the 50's we loaded our scrap steel on scrap ships, and they towed
them to Japan for processing. I guess we are to expensive to do do any
real labor. My dad's company did a lot of the work of cutting huge holes
in the decks of ships, which was filled with scrap and then welding the
deck section back in. As well,as welding the rudder straight and the prop
shaft from turning. Seems as will be even better economically for other
countries if we keep raising minimum wages.



We always had three small "dumpster" like containers behind the boat
shop, one for iron and steel, one for aluminum, and one for
brass-bronze-copper, and these were for the busted parts of boats,
motors, scooters, trailers, et cetera, and were "saved" for the monthly
pickup by a local scrap dealer, who would take them to his yard and then
send my dad a check for whatever the agreed-upon value per pound was.
These weren't the huge dumpsters you see nowadays, but maybe a third as
big. Pistons, blocks, drive shafts, broken "pot metal", busted props not
worth repairing, fasteners, control wires stripped out of their covers,
busted wheels. In those days, the scrap metal was then loaded onto rail
cars and shipped off to smelters in the USA to be reprocessed for
materials for new parts "made in the USA." I'm sure some of it was also
shipped to foreign countries.

I talked to one of the scrappers here and he said most of the sorted
scrap metal gets used in the US but mixed scrap is exported
I don't know how much that is actually true and whether it is just the
local disposition but it sounds reasonable. He gets the whole family
around and they take stuff like white goods apart, separating as much
of the high value stuff out as they can for the best price. He said
they could strip a washing machine down in 10 minutes, taking the
motors and solenoids apart for the copper, separating the aluminum
from the steel and getting rid of all the plastic. Most of it was just
working with a screw gun.


That was not the case in the California shipping place. All the trash
was separated into neat bales of plastic bottles, cardboard and metals.
Large sections of metals had to be cut into 4 foot lengths and then
bundled before loading into containers for shipment to China.

Now metals are fed into huge shredders to fill export containers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lXfitusZ9qY

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 06:59:00 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

Now metals are fed into huge shredders to fill export containers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lXfitusZ9qY

That is mixed scrap, not near as valuable as sorted (clean) metals.
I assume that waste stream goes through magnetic separation at least
but you still need a way to separate aluminum and copper from the
plastic and glass.
That is easier done in a 3d world plant where labor cost, worker
safety and environmental concerns are not as important.

On 10/16/15 10:56 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 06:59:00 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

Now metals are fed into huge shredders to fill export containers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lXfitusZ9qY

That is mixed scrap, not near as valuable as sorted (clean) metals.
I assume that waste stream goes through magnetic separation at least
but you still need a way to separate aluminum and copper from the
plastic and glass.
That is easier done in a 3d world plant where labor cost, worker
safety and environmental concerns are not as important.


Right, it's hard to compete with those libertarian countries where there
are few or no standards for labor cost, worker safety, or the
environment.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:04:40 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 10/16/15 10:56 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 06:59:00 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

Now metals are fed into huge shredders to fill export containers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lXfitusZ9qY

That is mixed scrap, not near as valuable as sorted (clean) metals.
I assume that waste stream goes through magnetic separation at least
but you still need a way to separate aluminum and copper from the
plastic and glass.
That is easier done in a 3d world plant where labor cost, worker
safety and environmental concerns are not as important.


Right, it's hard to compete with those libertarian countries where there
are few or no standards for labor cost, worker safety, or the
environment.

You don't have a clue do you?

The democrats want to be more like those countries with a government
that controls the means of production and micro manages every aspect
of everyone's life.

wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 06:59:00 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

Now metals are fed into huge shredders to fill export containers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lXfitusZ9qY

That is mixed scrap, not near as valuable as sorted (clean) metals.
I assume that waste stream goes through magnetic separation at least
but you still need a way to separate aluminum and copper from the
plastic and glass.
That is easier done in a 3d world plant where labor cost, worker
safety and environmental concerns are not as important.


Here is a link to video on the process. My dad did part of the building on
the original car shredder back in the 70's. Said had the biggest amount of
rebar and concrete in the base.
http://www.schnitzersteel.com/metals...g_process.aspx

On 10/16/15 11:14 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:04:40 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 10/16/15 10:56 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 06:59:00 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

Now metals are fed into huge shredders to fill export containers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lXfitusZ9qY

That is mixed scrap, not near as valuable as sorted (clean) metals.
I assume that waste stream goes through magnetic separation at least
but you still need a way to separate aluminum and copper from the
plastic and glass.
That is easier done in a 3d world plant where labor cost, worker
safety and environmental concerns are not as important.


Right, it's hard to compete with those libertarian countries where there
are few or no standards for labor cost, worker safety, or the
environment.

You don't have a clue do you?

The democrats want to be more like those countries with a government
that controls the means of production and micro manages every aspect
of everyone's life.



The Democratic Party has no interest in the government "controlling" the
means of production or "managing" every aspect of everyone's life. I get
a lot of "snail mail" and electronic mailings from Democratic Party
sources and affinity groups, and even from a couple of self-described
"socialist" organizations, and none of them are talking the nonsense you
bring up here.

You need to expand your horizons and stop paying so much attention to
libertarian nonsense and right-wing media. Perhaps you can audit a local
university liberal arts course in critical thinking.

I will grant you, however, that the United States is headed either
towards a revolution or a serious restructuring. This country cannot be
sustained if 99% of everything is owned/controlled by the wealthiest 3%.