On 12/3/2014 7:35 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

===

No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are
subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could
establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it
was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very
likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him.
The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma
and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but
we'll never know.


I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen. And once you grab that guys hand and "ask" him to get into
cuffs, no training in the world will allow a cop to back off to tazer or
mace... Once the struggle starts, you can not lose any amount of control
you have on the perp... Trust me, there is a lot you all don't know
about me, but you can't fight with what real cops have told me, and I
don't hang with them at tea parties I don't hate all cops, and they
all don't hate me

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.

On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.


Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting
emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once
you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total
control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on
until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is
that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp
is hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you
figure it out...

KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.


Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting
emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once
you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total
control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on
until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is
that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp is
hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you figure it out...

Tell us again how the cops shoved you down the stairs and took $600 from
you...
--
Sent from my iPhone 6+

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 10:46:55 PM UTC-5, F*O*A*D wrote:
KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.


Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting
emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once
you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total
control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on
until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is
that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp is
hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you figure it out...

Tell us again how the cops shoved you down the stairs and took $600 from
you...
--
Sent from my iPhone 6+

And yet I can still see their side on some things. You don't have that kind of wisdom, you are just a clown who spent his life stealing from others, no better than a bad cop, no moral core, no redeeming qualities at all harry krause.

On 12/3/2014 10:39 PM, KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big
that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the
ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach
around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.


Not necessarily... I just watch closer and listen closer without letting
emotion cloud my observation. It's pretty much common sense really, once
you try to fight a cop, they have to escalate until you are in total
control, just like once the thug in Ferguson clocked a cop, it was on
until he was in control. Cops can't "step back" cause all it takes is
that one second for something unexpected to happen and either the perp
is hurting someone else, or getting the upper hand.. It's all math, you
figure it out...


"I just watch closer and listen closer without letting emotion cloud my
observation."

LOL! This has to be the funniest line I've read here in a long time.

On 12/3/2014 10:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.


The smart thing to do when Garner became argumentative and refused to
comply would have been to step back and tase or mace him. Man handling
anyone puts both the cops and the person being arrested at risk of
injury when it isn't necessary. A taser and/or mace is very effective.
So is a billy club swung smartly on the shins.

On 12/4/2014 12:29 AM, wrote:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:03:45 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.

I have also seen guys who just got mad when they were pepper sprayed,
They don't use "Mace" anymore (CN or CS gas depending on the brand) it
is pepper spray now.

My former father in law (DC cop) said mace was only good to blind the
guy for a second so you could get in a couple good licks with your
night stick. ;-)


There's a reason that in the old days the image of a police officer was
a smiling, blue uniformed dude walking down the sidewalk twirling his
night stick.

I've mentioned before that I learned how effective a night stick can be
while standing Shore Patrol duty in the Navy. A quick blow to the shins
will drop just about anyone without causing any permanent damage.