On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

===

No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are
subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could
establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it
was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very
likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him.
The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma
and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but
we'll never know.

On 12/3/2014 7:35 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

===

No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are
subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could
establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it
was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very
likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him.
The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma
and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but
we'll never know.



Thanks. That makes sense.

It seems to me that police officers in NYC might have better things to
do than go after a guy for selling a few packs of non-taxed cigarettes.

But there was also a reference to Garner being involved in breaking up a
fight. Maybe that's why the police were called.

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:49:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 12/3/2014 7:35 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

===

No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are
subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could
establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it
was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very
likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him.
The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma
and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but
we'll never know.



Thanks. That makes sense.

It seems to me that police officers in NYC might have better things to
do than go after a guy for selling a few packs of non-taxed cigarettes.

But there was also a reference to Garner being involved in breaking up a
fight. Maybe that's why the police were called.


===

I believe Garner had a lot of priors for relatively low level street
crimes and was well known to the local cops.

One of the reasons that Rudy Giuliani was so successful at reducing
NYC's crime rate was because of the active pursuit of low level crimes
that were formerly ignored. It turns out that the big crimes are
committed by pretty much the same people as the small crimes, so if
you pursue the petty offenders you also reduce the more serious stuff.
That lesson took hold and has influenced policy ever since.

On 12/3/2014 7:35 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:52:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

A choke hold in NY is not permitted under any circumstances per NYPD
policy. It is considered to be excessive force.

Questions:

Is the choke therefore against the law?

===

No. The rule is a departmental policy, and if you break it, you are
subject to departmental discipline/corrective action. If you could
establish in a departmental hearing that you had no other choice or it
was accidental, you might be exonerated. That doesn't seem very
likely in this case since they could have maced Garner or tasered him.
The cops clearly over reacted in my opinion. Given Garner's asthma
and other medical issues, the mace or taser might have killed him but
we'll never know.


I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen. And once you grab that guys hand and "ask" him to get into
cuffs, no training in the world will allow a cop to back off to tazer or
mace... Once the struggle starts, you can not lose any amount of control
you have on the perp... Trust me, there is a lot you all don't know
about me, but you can't fight with what real cops have told me, and I
don't hang with them at tea parties I don't hate all cops, and they
all don't hate me

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:07:40 -0500, KC wrote:

On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.

===

You've no doubt had more experience with the police than many of us.

On 12/3/2014 10:07 PM, KC wrote:
On 12/3/2014 10:03 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 20:36:11 -0500, KC wrote:

I just don't get all the gibberish and yappin'. Did you see how big that
guy was, have you ever had to deal with a guy that big? It's like
grabbing a battle ship and expecting it to know you are there. Anyway,
when somebody else can tell me how you get a guy that big on the ground
without getting around the only part of his body you can reach around, I
will listen.

===

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.


It happened too fast. They took the guys hand and asked him to turn
around and get cuffed, he pulled away and three jumped on him. The choke
hold looked like it was a few seconds at best but like I said, once the
cop grabs your hand, he can't let you out of his control, not even for a
second... Once they have physical control of even part of you, they
really can't relinquish that control... period.


The smart thing to do when Garner became argumentative and refused to
comply would have been to step back and tase or mace him. Man handling
anyone puts both the cops and the person being arrested at risk of
injury when it isn't necessary. A taser and/or mace is very effective.
So is a billy club swung smartly on the shins.

On 12/4/2014 12:29 AM, wrote:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:03:45 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.

I have also seen guys who just got mad when they were pepper sprayed,
They don't use "Mace" anymore (CN or CS gas depending on the brand) it
is pepper spray now.

My former father in law (DC cop) said mace was only good to blind the
guy for a second so you could get in a couple good licks with your
night stick. ;-)


There's a reason that in the old days the image of a police officer was
a smiling, blue uniformed dude walking down the sidewalk twirling his
night stick.

I've mentioned before that I learned how effective a night stick can be
while standing Shore Patrol duty in the Navy. A quick blow to the shins
will drop just about anyone without causing any permanent damage.

On 12/4/2014 12:18 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 04:48:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 12/4/2014 12:29 AM, wrote:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:03:45 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Easy, mace and/or a taser. I have seen large adult men running in
circles, screaming like babies and running into trees after being
maced with the military stuff.

I have also seen guys who just got mad when they were pepper sprayed,
They don't use "Mace" anymore (CN or CS gas depending on the brand) it
is pepper spray now.

My former father in law (DC cop) said mace was only good to blind the
guy for a second so you could get in a couple good licks with your
night stick. ;-)


There's a reason that in the old days the image of a police officer was
a smiling, blue uniformed dude walking down the sidewalk twirling his
night stick.

I've mentioned before that I learned how effective a night stick can be
while standing Shore Patrol duty in the Navy. A quick blow to the shins
will drop just about anyone without causing any permanent damage.

They sent me to the Marine E5/E6 club with an SP arm band while I was
in Norfolk in instructor school. The first thing I did was take that
pretty white club off my belt and tell the bar manager to put it
behind the bar. When the manager asked me why I said I didn't want one
of these drunk gunny sargents to shove it up my ass. He laughed and
said "I think I am going to like you"
There was some kind of fight about once an hour in that place.
I was able to simply talk them into taking their fights across the
street to the field where they were allowed to do it. (Norfolk city
property, off club property)
By the end of the first night I was pretty much accepted and I was
requested back the next night.

I agree the Garner thing might have been able to be handled better but
if he does not want to be arrested, they need to do something. With
all of his health problems, a taser or pepper spray could have easily
killed him too and it might not even work.



I'd say you were lucky. Dealing with drunks on the strip at Norfolk or
even Great Lakes wasn't fun duty.

The biggest brawl I ever saw was at the club at the base in Ponce,
Puerto Rico. The USS Ponce (a Marine troop transport) pulled into the
port in Ponce for a liberty call. That evening the EM club filled up
with Marines from the ship along with the regular Navy personnel
stationed at the Fort Allen transmitter site. My wife was working at
the club as a waitress at the time, so I got a job as a bartender, just
to keep an eye on her.

The evening started out fine. The club filled up with lots of heavy
drinking going on. Then, one of the Marines who had been making a lot
of loud, obnoxious comments started grabbing at my wife. A few of my
friends saw it and came to her rescue, knocking the guy off his chair
and onto the floor. One yelled to me (I was behind the bar not looking
at what was going on because I was getting someone a beer from the
cooler). I turned to see what he was yelling and a beer bottle flew by
my head, smashing into some bottles on the bar shelf. I jumped over the
bar, grabbed my wife and pulled her back behind the bar and told her to
stay put, kneeling down on the floor mat and went back to go after the
guy that had been grabbing at her. (I was young and stupid then).

By then the whole frigin' place was like a bar brawl in an old western
movie. People swinging at everyone, chairs being thrown and bottles
flying. I have to say that the Navy guys didn't do too badly against
the Marines. We outnumbered them but not by much.

It finally ended with both Navy and Marine Shore Patrol arriving. I
don't know where they all came from but they were there in force.
There were guys out cold laying all over the place.

I've never experienced anything like it since.