Well ....
 

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 11/18/2014 7:39 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 18:45:42 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/18/2014 5:16 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:44:24 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:51:25 -0500, wrote:

Does that mean we should be shooting illegal immigrants?

(just a joke, relax)

If we did that, who would do all of the hard work?

We would starve, nothing would be built and the grass would be over
the house.

And the Democrats would lose lots of votes!

I think the democrats are overestimating the number of immigrants they
are going to pick up. These people may start out as democrats but once
they get their businesses going, they will be republicans and
immigrants are the ones most likely to actually start a small business
... at least that is what we see here.
The biggest factor is usually oppressive regulations that actually
favor the same large corporations the democrats say they are against.
A company like Walmart can afford a compliance division and a staff to
sort through all of this red tape. Jose and Julio's little fruit store
doesn't stand a chance.



Nonsense.

Jose and Julio's are unlikely to start out anywhere near the scale of a
Walmart. Much more likely as a sole proprietorship or simple "S" or
"C" corporation. Very simple and inexpensive process to file.

Jose and Julio will most likely rent or buy a small, existing facility
to conduct their business in. Local codes and rules apply for an
occupancy permit but certainly not a major deal.



You are just talking about their business license (what they call a
business tax receipt in Florida ... fact)
It does not actually allow you to do anything but have a business
address and pay taxes on it. If you are just selling fresh fruit your
store needs to meet a number of health department regulations, you
need to have documentation about where ther fruit actually came from
(a lot of fruit can't even come into Florida) and it has to be clearly
labeled by country of origin. Your stand also needs to meet fire
codes, egress codes, building codes and have an assortment of signs
and placards, perhaps even sprinklers.
If you actually have the gaul to try to sell any kind of prepared food
you have not even scratched the surface of the rules you are dealing
with. When you hire someone to work behind the counter there is
another bureaucracy that kicks in (IRS, OSHA, the Labor department
several kinds of insurance)
All that and you might even have a DEA SWAT team come in and dump out
all of your fruit boxes looking for dope.

You really should talk to my buddy Ammet who runs the little stand at
the end of my street. He will tell you about things I forgot.



Sounds like you live in a nanny state. :-)

I've been through the process several times.
The first was for an engineering/metal fab company that ultimately
employed over 70 people in a 40,000 sq.ft. facility.
Took all of 2 or 3 days to purchase and install the required fire
extinguishers, update the exit signs, build an area to house the various
high pressure gas cylinders (argon, nitrogen, oxygen, propane etc.)

All requirements were outlined for us by a courtesy visit by the fire
department and building inspector. They came back a week later, did the
sign off inspection and we were open for business. 24 years later it's
still in business under different ownership and management.

While operating that business I also bought a small breakfast and lunch
shop that was going to close. It was in the park that my business was
located and was a popular place for people to have breakfast and get
lunches. The woman who owned it was retiring, so I bought it and hired
the former employees who had worked there to run it. I became very
familiar with the food handling requirements, inspections and licenses.
None were an issue to speak of and a license was granted in less than a
week. Biggest issue was keeping the grease traps clean.
Interesting experience but not my bag. I ended up selling it to the
employees on a simple time payment schedule that they could afford.

Then, years later, when I decided to open the guitar shop/performance
venue, I went through the process again. There was a bit of a
controversy because we had seating and a stage for live performances as
well as the retail area for guitar and amp sales. A question arose as to
our status being "retail" or "place of assembly". The codes are
different. After discussions between the fire department and the
building inspector that took all of about 3 minutes, the issue was
resolved and we were issued an occupancy permit.

Point is, it wasn't a very involved process in any of the three cases. No
"red tape" to speak of other than going to the respective town hall,
filling out the applications and equipping the buildings with whatever
was required by the fire department primarily.

Biggest issue was with the electrical inspectors for the guitar shop.
They tend to have their own ideas on what they like to see. I had done a
lot of new wiring myself for the stage, stage lights, etc. without
bothering with a permit, so I was a little apprehensive when he arrived
for the occupancy permit inspection. He checked everything out and asked
who did the new wiring. I told him "Me", expecting all hell to break
loose but he said it was all fine. I've learned that everyone needs to
feel they did their job so when he insisted that the exit lights be
changed to the newer, LED types and the electrical room have a sign on
the door saying. "Electrical Room", I was happy to accomodate him. That was easy enough.

You were lucky maybe. Have a friend who had a string of hotdog carts in
the San Jose area. Health dept. Agent says they need a hot water sink on
the cart. In case they dropped the tongs. Ignoring the fact that the cart
had a supply of spares for just that case.

Well ....
 

wrote:
On 19 Nov 2014 01:52:03 GMT, F*O*A*D wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 20:27:12 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

I'm not drawing lines. I'm merely stating I have no objections to
subsistence hunting as it is generally described.

It does sound like you are saying homeless people could corner a fawn
in your neighborhood, beat it to death with baseball bats and that
would be OK if they were hungry enough.

You are trying much too hard.

I am just trying to figure out where the line is drawn with you. Is it
only that you do not like the idea of anyone on Rec Boats doing
something you don't do?
You have created this straw man of subsistence hunting but you don't
seem to be able to define it. Wouldn't a homeless person killing a
deer for food be subsistence?
Why isn't Tim doing it OK if he is eating the deer?

I assume fishing is morally repugnant to you too?

I don't do either one so I don't really have a dog in the fight but I
am curious about the rules.

I have given the generally accepted definition of subsistence hunting
several times. Try reading for content and comprehension.

--
Sent from my iPhone 6+

Well ....
 

On 11/18/2014 8:34 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 20:13:28 -0500, KC wrote:



Just did one of my old fall backs the other night. I take a pork loin
(say 8" long) and a good filet knife and I slice it in a spiral like a
jelly roll to the center and lay it out on the cutting board so I have a
flat rectangle. Sprinkle on a bit of salt and pepper then I lay a layer
of cheese down, followed by a layer of browned crumbled sausage (about a
half pound), and then a layer of spinach leaves. Then I roll the thing
back up into a roast (like I said, it looks like a jelly roll) and tie
it up with cotton butchers string and put it in the oven uncovered in a
glass pan at 350 degrees.. I forget how long, I just watch the meat
thermometer.. Sometimes I lay bacon strips over the top, but others I
rub salt and pepper and bread crumbs then sprinkle with balsamic vinegar
before I put it in the oven... Sorry, just thought I would pass that
along. Also, I have used broccoli instead of spinach, all is good... go
heavy on the greens, it's a great stick to your ribs meal....

Publix calls that pork florentine. They sell it ready to go in the
meat case. It is rolled up and tied so they can just slice off 1" or
so slices. I cook on the stove in a covered skillet on a bed of sweet
onions.


Hummm, I don't think we have Publix here. First time I saw it we bought
one in a little Italian deli near home..

Well ....
 

On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:49:24 -0500, wrote:

I am just trying to figure out where the line is drawn with you. Is it
only that you do not like the idea of anyone on Rec Boats doing
something you don't do?
You have created this straw man of subsistence hunting but you don't
seem to be able to define it. Wouldn't a homeless person killing a
deer for food be subsistence?
Why isn't Tim doing it OK if he is eating the deer?

I assume fishing is morally repugnant to you too?

I don't do either one so I don't really have a dog in the fight but I
am curious about the rules.

===

It's too bad we can't shoot evasive species. :-)

On the other hand, I don't think anyone would want an asshat mounted
on their wall.

Well ....
 

wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:19:29 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/18/14 8:28 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 19:57:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

Ahh...libertarianism...no regs because tainted food makes you strong.

That is the problem with you Harry. You can't see the difference
between reasonable regulation and oppressive regulation that only a
corporate compliance department can deal with.
You complain about Walmart running the Mom and Pop operations out of
business but you won't admit, over regulation is part of the problem.
The fact remains that a 200,000 square foot Walmart has just about the
same regulatory burden as a 200 square foot fruit stand. Who do you
think can absorb it easier?



We have lots of roadside produce stands around here. Dozens. The regs
they must follow can't be that burdensome. As a libertarian, you're
against most regs, right?

We are talking about a building, not a guy in a truck but maybe you
don't really have that much regulation up there.
Agriculture is just a hobby for most Marylanders so they don't care
that much about where produce comes from.
Who knows if you even have life safety officers?

You mentioned fruit stands. Can't stick with the subjects you bring up?
--
Sent from my iPhone 6+

Well ....
 

On 11/18/2014 10:20 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:49:24 -0500, wrote:

I am just trying to figure out where the line is drawn with you. Is it
only that you do not like the idea of anyone on Rec Boats doing
something you don't do?
You have created this straw man of subsistence hunting but you don't
seem to be able to define it. Wouldn't a homeless person killing a
deer for food be subsistence?
Why isn't Tim doing it OK if he is eating the deer?

I assume fishing is morally repugnant to you too?

I don't do either one so I don't really have a dog in the fight but I
am curious about the rules.

===

It's too bad we can't shoot evasive species. :-)

On the other hand, I don't think anyone would want an asshat mounted
on their wall.


LOL....

Well ....
 

On 11/18/2014 10:41 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:24:49 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/18/2014 8:28 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 19:57:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

Ahh...libertarianism...no regs because tainted food makes you strong.

That is the problem with you Harry. You can't see the difference
between reasonable regulation and oppressive regulation that only a
corporate compliance department can deal with.
You complain about Walmart running the Mom and Pop operations out of
business but you won't admit, over regulation is part of the problem.
The fact remains that a 200,000 square foot Walmart has just about the
same regulatory burden as a 200 square foot fruit stand. Who do you
think can absorb it easier?



I don't believe that.


The elements are still pretty much the same, Walmart just has more of
each item.
If you have a compliance department that knows all the rules, it is
just a process that you have done 100 times. When you are learning by
"citation and fine" it is not as intuitive.
In my wife's club, the municipality changed (same dirt, different
government) and the new life safety officer read the code different
than it had been interpreted for the last 25 years.
In real life, he was right and the previous guys were not keeping up.
There wasn't one single compliant business or club in the city of
Bonita for almost a year. Some just closed.

These codes change every 3 years. (another pet peeve of mine)
Because of bureaucratic inertia, by the time a code cycle is adopted,
a newer version is already out.
The problem with commercial codes is there is very little grand
fathering. The rule changes, you have to comply.
ADA is the worst and sometimes makes the least sense.


Ten years ago we built a part of a website for the University of
Connecticut. Before we could even start we had to sign a contract which
included over 20 pages of regulations and questions relating to anti
discrimination / affirmative action information we had to fill out even
though we were a partnership of 2. They needed to make sure at least 15%
of us were minorities... Just was just that section of regulations, it
took us a week to fill in the papers, do do a job that took a week and a
half...

Well ....
 

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:50:11 AM UTC-8, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 11/18/14 12:51 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 22:22:10 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:




If you mean the palins, they are not subsistence hunters. I have no idea
who the "motor city mad man" is. I have no objection to, for example,
tribesmen who hunt because it is the only way they can feed themselves
and their families. You really should stop coming to conclusions based
upon your wild-assed guesses.

So someone who just hunts to supplement their income is evil?
Do you feel the same about gardening?

Personally I do not see much difference between shooting a deer and
paying Giant food to kill a steer, butcher and wrap it for me.
Both are going to be a dead mammal that we cook and eat.




*My* point was that there is no morality in non-subsistence hunting. If
a family with very little money can put food on the table or have
something to sell or trade by hunting, then *that* is subsistence hunting.

You don't seem to understand the point.

--

Your idea of subsistence hunting is signing up for a FSP/WIC card.

Well ....
 

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:07:27 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:41:35 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/18/14 1:12 PM, wrote:

You don't seem to understand the point.

Maybe I do.

If the hunter is eating the game, it is subsistence hunting.

Not by the normal definition of subsistence hunting.

A pound of meat taken home from a hunt is a pound of meat that didn't
come off a factory farm. That should be worth something to all of you
global warming and pollution folks.

Natural free range with no growth vaccinations, synthetic feed supplements, nor antibiotics. The animal activists should love that idea!

Well ....
 

On 11/18/2014 10:21 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2014 21:23:28 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Sounds like you live in a nanny state. :-)

Probably.
A population of people on walkers who have a bad habit of not getting
out of burning buildings and a few hurricanes where the building code
process failed have created a culture of regulation that does seem
oppressive sometimes.
We have life safety officers who actually know the code and enforce
it. The agriculture inspectors are also very serious about their job
because of the number of weird 3d world (plant) diseases and insects
we could import.


I read your stories and I understand these rules may seem easy for
you, coming in, well capitalized and well educated but if you are an
immigrant who came from a place where starting a business was just
building a shack, it is overwhelming. That was my point.
Remember where this conversation started.
I said the GOP can appeal to immigrants by saying they will cut the
red tape ... even if it is a lie.


Good point. An immigrant may also have a language barrier issue also.