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#1
posted to rec.boats
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Thank you, Richard!!!
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#3
posted to rec.boats
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Thank you, Richard!!!
On 11/16/14 12:40 PM, Califbill wrote:
Harrold wrote: On 11/16/2014 12:02 AM, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:03:46 -0500, Roger wrote: The way I see it is if a gun is used in a crime and still has a serial number on it the first step would be for the police to contact the manufacturer. From there they would know the dealer who sold who will give them the buyers name. When they contact the buyer they will be looking for the gun and I would prefer to know who I sold it to if I didn't have it. If it was sold privately, I only have a bill of sale and a copy of their drivers license (not required but that's what I do). By transferring through a dealer we aren't forcing registration but we a taking ourselves completely out of the loop. Cops seldom even care where a gun came from. Maybe some day they might but I am not sure what purpose it would actually serve. If the gun is not fairly new, it will usually have "been around" and there will be gaps in the ownership chain. 4473s are not required to be sent to DC and the dealer can destroy them after 20 years. If the dealer goes out of business or simply dies, his 4473s and his "bound book" may just languish in a dusty box until his family throws them out.. The current system was purposely designed NOT to be a registry. Let's take, for example, one of the guns Harry bought in Virginia. Harry has the gun, there is a Maryland dealer with the 4473 in his files but if Harry doesn't say who he is and know how to get in touch with him, there is no way to find him. If you do, there will be a direct link to the dealer in Virginia and the person who sold it to him but if they can't locate that person, the trail goes cold again. If they do find him and he can't locate the dealer he got it from you are still dead in the water. Every private owner is a break in the chain and there is no national database linking them. That all assumes every transaction went through a FFL to begin with and that those dealers and their records still exist. I doubt more than 10% of the dealers I bought guns from over the years are still in business or that the FFL holders are even alive. Most were used when I got them (from a dealer) and the chance of getting back to the manufacturer is nil. I have some that were sold in a number of private transactions before I bought them. They are total dead ends. Maybe not. Ballistics checks on those guns might tie them to unsolved crimes. I hope you keep your bills of sales for gun purchases. I can not find a bill of sale for luggage I bought 6 months ago that went bad. How are we to keep track of a bill of sale, even if we had one, for a gun bought 50 years ago? I sold a Ruger RedHawk to a ,friend of a friend in about 1970, and replaced with a Colt that was for sale on a note on the wall of the Martinez gun range same year. Was not required to have FFL transfer, receipt, or even to know someone in those days. You plopped down pictures of dead presidents and took possession. Same way it is still done in the inner city. I have the original bill of sale on paper and electronically for every firearm I've ever bought or sold, along with a photo of each showing the serial number, and receipts and FFL documentation. When my dad died in the 1970s, I gave his firearms to one of his old buddies, a New Haven cop. I should have kept his High Standard target pistol, made locally.  -- Just because you are opposed to abortion doesn’t make you pro-life. Your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed, not a child clothed, not a child able to see the doctor. That’s not pro-life…that’s pro-birth. |
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#4
posted to rec.boats
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Thank you, Richard!!!
On 11/16/2014 1:06 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 11/16/14 12:40 PM, Califbill wrote: Harrold wrote: On 11/16/2014 12:02 AM, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:03:46 -0500, Roger wrote: The way I see it is if a gun is used in a crime and still has a serial number on it the first step would be for the police to contact the manufacturer. From there they would know the dealer who sold who will give them the buyers name. When they contact the buyer they will be looking for the gun and I would prefer to know who I sold it to if I didn't have it. If it was sold privately, I only have a bill of sale and a copy of their drivers license (not required but that's what I do). By transferring through a dealer we aren't forcing registration but we a taking ourselves completely out of the loop. Cops seldom even care where a gun came from. Maybe some day they might but I am not sure what purpose it would actually serve. If the gun is not fairly new, it will usually have "been around" and there will be gaps in the ownership chain. 4473s are not required to be sent to DC and the dealer can destroy them after 20 years. If the dealer goes out of business or simply dies, his 4473s and his "bound book" may just languish in a dusty box until his family throws them out.. The current system was purposely designed NOT to be a registry. Let's take, for example, one of the guns Harry bought in Virginia. Harry has the gun, there is a Maryland dealer with the 4473 in his files but if Harry doesn't say who he is and know how to get in touch with him, there is no way to find him. If you do, there will be a direct link to the dealer in Virginia and the person who sold it to him but if they can't locate that person, the trail goes cold again. If they do find him and he can't locate the dealer he got it from you are still dead in the water. Every private owner is a break in the chain and there is no national database linking them. That all assumes every transaction went through a FFL to begin with and that those dealers and their records still exist. I doubt more than 10% of the dealers I bought guns from over the years are still in business or that the FFL holders are even alive. Most were used when I got them (from a dealer) and the chance of getting back to the manufacturer is nil. I have some that were sold in a number of private transactions before I bought them. They are total dead ends. Maybe not. Ballistics checks on those guns might tie them to unsolved crimes. I hope you keep your bills of sales for gun purchases. I can not find a bill of sale for luggage I bought 6 months ago that went bad. How are we to keep track of a bill of sale, even if we had one, for a gun bought 50 years ago? I sold a Ruger RedHawk to a ,friend of a friend in about 1970, and replaced with a Colt that was for sale on a note on the wall of the Martinez gun range same year. Was not required to have FFL transfer, receipt, or even to know someone in those days. You plopped down pictures of dead presidents and took possession. Same way it is still done in the inner city. I have the original bill of sale on paper and electronically for every firearm I've ever bought or sold, along with a photo of each showing the serial number, and receipts and FFL documentation. When my dad died in the 1970s, I gave his firearms to one of his old buddies, a New Haven cop. I should have kept his High Standard target pistol, made locally. Good puppy. (pat on head) ;-) |
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#5
posted to rec.boats
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Thank you, Richard!!!
On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:17:33 -0500, Harrold wrote:
On 11/16/2014 1:06 PM, F*O*A*D wrote: On 11/16/14 12:40 PM, Califbill wrote: Harrold wrote: On 11/16/2014 12:02 AM, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:03:46 -0500, Roger wrote: The way I see it is if a gun is used in a crime and still has a serial number on it the first step would be for the police to contact the manufacturer. From there they would know the dealer who sold who will give them the buyers name. When they contact the buyer they will be looking for the gun and I would prefer to know who I sold it to if I didn't have it. If it was sold privately, I only have a bill of sale and a copy of their drivers license (not required but that's what I do). By transferring through a dealer we aren't forcing registration but we a taking ourselves completely out of the loop. Cops seldom even care where a gun came from. Maybe some day they might but I am not sure what purpose it would actually serve. If the gun is not fairly new, it will usually have "been around" and there will be gaps in the ownership chain. 4473s are not required to be sent to DC and the dealer can destroy them after 20 years. If the dealer goes out of business or simply dies, his 4473s and his "bound book" may just languish in a dusty box until his family throws them out.. The current system was purposely designed NOT to be a registry. Let's take, for example, one of the guns Harry bought in Virginia. Harry has the gun, there is a Maryland dealer with the 4473 in his files but if Harry doesn't say who he is and know how to get in touch with him, there is no way to find him. If you do, there will be a direct link to the dealer in Virginia and the person who sold it to him but if they can't locate that person, the trail goes cold again. If they do find him and he can't locate the dealer he got it from you are still dead in the water. Every private owner is a break in the chain and there is no national database linking them. That all assumes every transaction went through a FFL to begin with and that those dealers and their records still exist. I doubt more than 10% of the dealers I bought guns from over the years are still in business or that the FFL holders are even alive. Most were used when I got them (from a dealer) and the chance of getting back to the manufacturer is nil. I have some that were sold in a number of private transactions before I bought them. They are total dead ends. Maybe not. Ballistics checks on those guns might tie them to unsolved crimes. I hope you keep your bills of sales for gun purchases. I can not find a bill of sale for luggage I bought 6 months ago that went bad. How are we to keep track of a bill of sale, even if we had one, for a gun bought 50 years ago? I sold a Ruger RedHawk to a ,friend of a friend in about 1970, and replaced with a Colt that was for sale on a note on the wall of the Martinez gun range same year. Was not required to have FFL transfer, receipt, or even to know someone in those days. You plopped down pictures of dead presidents and took possession. Same way it is still done in the inner city. I have the original bill of sale on paper and electronically for every firearm I've ever bought or sold, along with a photo of each showing the serial number, and receipts and FFL documentation. When my dad died in the 1970s, I gave his firearms to one of his old buddies, a New Haven cop. I should have kept his High Standard target pistol, made locally. Good puppy. (pat on head) ;-) Don should be saying that. |
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#6
posted to rec.boats
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Thank you, Richard!!!
On 11/16/2014 1:13 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:40:27 -0600, Califbill wrote: Harrold wrote: On 11/16/2014 12:02 AM, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:03:46 -0500, Roger wrote: The way I see it is if a gun is used in a crime and still has a serial number on it the first step would be for the police to contact the manufacturer. From there they would know the dealer who sold who will give them the buyers name. When they contact the buyer they will be looking for the gun and I would prefer to know who I sold it to if I didn't have it. If it was sold privately, I only have a bill of sale and a copy of their drivers license (not required but that's what I do). By transferring through a dealer we aren't forcing registration but we a taking ourselves completely out of the loop. Cops seldom even care where a gun came from. Maybe some day they might but I am not sure what purpose it would actually serve. If the gun is not fairly new, it will usually have "been around" and there will be gaps in the ownership chain. 4473s are not required to be sent to DC and the dealer can destroy them after 20 years. If the dealer goes out of business or simply dies, his 4473s and his "bound book" may just languish in a dusty box until his family throws them out.. The current system was purposely designed NOT to be a registry. Let's take, for example, one of the guns Harry bought in Virginia. Harry has the gun, there is a Maryland dealer with the 4473 in his files but if Harry doesn't say who he is and know how to get in touch with him, there is no way to find him. If you do, there will be a direct link to the dealer in Virginia and the person who sold it to him but if they can't locate that person, the trail goes cold again. If they do find him and he can't locate the dealer he got it from you are still dead in the water. Every private owner is a break in the chain and there is no national database linking them. That all assumes every transaction went through a FFL to begin with and that those dealers and their records still exist. I doubt more than 10% of the dealers I bought guns from over the years are still in business or that the FFL holders are even alive. Most were used when I got them (from a dealer) and the chance of getting back to the manufacturer is nil. I have some that were sold in a number of private transactions before I bought them. They are total dead ends. Maybe not. Ballistics checks on those guns might tie them to unsolved crimes. I hope you keep your bills of sales for gun purchases. I can not find a bill of sale for luggage I bought 6 months ago that went bad. How are we to keep track of a bill of sale, even if we had one, for a gun bought 50 years ago? I sold a Ruger RedHawk to a ,friend of a friend in about 1970, and replaced with a Colt that was for sale on a note on the wall of the Martinez gun range same year. Was not required to have FFL transfer, receipt, or even to know someone in those days. You plopped down pictures of dead presidents and took possession. Same way it is still done in the inner city. I doubt I could even come up with the name of the dealers I bought most of my guns from and if you went there it might be a Starbucks. I don't know of a single one of them that is still in business. Even my 2 most recent purchases were from dealers run out of business by Bass Pro Shop. I don't have paperwork on any of them. Another good reason for a state by state or national data base. |
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#7
posted to rec.boats
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Thank you, Richard!!!
On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 13:17:43 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 11/16/2014 1:13 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:40:27 -0600, Califbill wrote: Harrold wrote: On 11/16/2014 12:02 AM, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:03:46 -0500, Roger wrote: The way I see it is if a gun is used in a crime and still has a serial number on it the first step would be for the police to contact the manufacturer. From there they would know the dealer who sold who will give them the buyers name. When they contact the buyer they will be looking for the gun and I would prefer to know who I sold it to if I didn't have it. If it was sold privately, I only have a bill of sale and a copy of their drivers license (not required but that's what I do). By transferring through a dealer we aren't forcing registration but we a taking ourselves completely out of the loop. Cops seldom even care where a gun came from. Maybe some day they might but I am not sure what purpose it would actually serve. If the gun is not fairly new, it will usually have "been around" and there will be gaps in the ownership chain. 4473s are not required to be sent to DC and the dealer can destroy them after 20 years. If the dealer goes out of business or simply dies, his 4473s and his "bound book" may just languish in a dusty box until his family throws them out.. The current system was purposely designed NOT to be a registry. Let's take, for example, one of the guns Harry bought in Virginia. Harry has the gun, there is a Maryland dealer with the 4473 in his files but if Harry doesn't say who he is and know how to get in touch with him, there is no way to find him. If you do, there will be a direct link to the dealer in Virginia and the person who sold it to him but if they can't locate that person, the trail goes cold again. If they do find him and he can't locate the dealer he got it from you are still dead in the water. Every private owner is a break in the chain and there is no national database linking them. That all assumes every transaction went through a FFL to begin with and that those dealers and their records still exist. I doubt more than 10% of the dealers I bought guns from over the years are still in business or that the FFL holders are even alive. Most were used when I got them (from a dealer) and the chance of getting back to the manufacturer is nil. I have some that were sold in a number of private transactions before I bought them. They are total dead ends. Maybe not. Ballistics checks on those guns might tie them to unsolved crimes. I hope you keep your bills of sales for gun purchases. I can not find a bill of sale for luggage I bought 6 months ago that went bad. How are we to keep track of a bill of sale, even if we had one, for a gun bought 50 years ago? I sold a Ruger RedHawk to a ,friend of a friend in about 1970, and replaced with a Colt that was for sale on a note on the wall of the Martinez gun range same year. Was not required to have FFL transfer, receipt, or even to know someone in those days. You plopped down pictures of dead presidents and took possession. Same way it is still done in the inner city. I doubt I could even come up with the name of the dealers I bought most of my guns from and if you went there it might be a Starbucks. I don't know of a single one of them that is still in business. Even my 2 most recent purchases were from dealers run out of business by Bass Pro Shop. I don't have paperwork on any of them. Another good reason for a state by state or national data base. Only if he needs the paperwork. Greg - do you need the paperwork? |
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#8
posted to rec.boats
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Thank you, Richard!!!
On 11/16/2014 2:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 13:17:43 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 11/16/2014 1:13 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:40:27 -0600, Califbill wrote: Harrold wrote: On 11/16/2014 12:02 AM, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:03:46 -0500, Roger wrote: The way I see it is if a gun is used in a crime and still has a serial number on it the first step would be for the police to contact the manufacturer. From there they would know the dealer who sold who will give them the buyers name. When they contact the buyer they will be looking for the gun and I would prefer to know who I sold it to if I didn't have it. If it was sold privately, I only have a bill of sale and a copy of their drivers license (not required but that's what I do). By transferring through a dealer we aren't forcing registration but we a taking ourselves completely out of the loop. Cops seldom even care where a gun came from. Maybe some day they might but I am not sure what purpose it would actually serve. If the gun is not fairly new, it will usually have "been around" and there will be gaps in the ownership chain. 4473s are not required to be sent to DC and the dealer can destroy them after 20 years. If the dealer goes out of business or simply dies, his 4473s and his "bound book" may just languish in a dusty box until his family throws them out.. The current system was purposely designed NOT to be a registry. Let's take, for example, one of the guns Harry bought in Virginia. Harry has the gun, there is a Maryland dealer with the 4473 in his files but if Harry doesn't say who he is and know how to get in touch with him, there is no way to find him. If you do, there will be a direct link to the dealer in Virginia and the person who sold it to him but if they can't locate that person, the trail goes cold again. If they do find him and he can't locate the dealer he got it from you are still dead in the water. Every private owner is a break in the chain and there is no national database linking them. That all assumes every transaction went through a FFL to begin with and that those dealers and their records still exist. I doubt more than 10% of the dealers I bought guns from over the years are still in business or that the FFL holders are even alive. Most were used when I got them (from a dealer) and the chance of getting back to the manufacturer is nil. I have some that were sold in a number of private transactions before I bought them. They are total dead ends. Maybe not. Ballistics checks on those guns might tie them to unsolved crimes. I hope you keep your bills of sales for gun purchases. I can not find a bill of sale for luggage I bought 6 months ago that went bad. How are we to keep track of a bill of sale, even if we had one, for a gun bought 50 years ago? I sold a Ruger RedHawk to a ,friend of a friend in about 1970, and replaced with a Colt that was for sale on a note on the wall of the Martinez gun range same year. Was not required to have FFL transfer, receipt, or even to know someone in those days. You plopped down pictures of dead presidents and took possession. Same way it is still done in the inner city. I doubt I could even come up with the name of the dealers I bought most of my guns from and if you went there it might be a Starbucks. I don't know of a single one of them that is still in business. Even my 2 most recent purchases were from dealers run out of business by Bass Pro Shop. I don't have paperwork on any of them. Another good reason for a state by state or national data base. Only if he needs the paperwork. Greg - do you need the paperwork? That's fine John if all you are interested in is protecting your own ass. |
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#9
posted to rec.boats
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Thank you, Richard!!!
On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 14:33:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 11/16/2014 2:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 13:17:43 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 11/16/2014 1:13 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:40:27 -0600, Califbill wrote: Harrold wrote: On 11/16/2014 12:02 AM, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:03:46 -0500, Roger wrote: The way I see it is if a gun is used in a crime and still has a serial number on it the first step would be for the police to contact the manufacturer. From there they would know the dealer who sold who will give them the buyers name. When they contact the buyer they will be looking for the gun and I would prefer to know who I sold it to if I didn't have it. If it was sold privately, I only have a bill of sale and a copy of their drivers license (not required but that's what I do). By transferring through a dealer we aren't forcing registration but we a taking ourselves completely out of the loop. Cops seldom even care where a gun came from. Maybe some day they might but I am not sure what purpose it would actually serve. If the gun is not fairly new, it will usually have "been around" and there will be gaps in the ownership chain. 4473s are not required to be sent to DC and the dealer can destroy them after 20 years. If the dealer goes out of business or simply dies, his 4473s and his "bound book" may just languish in a dusty box until his family throws them out.. The current system was purposely designed NOT to be a registry. Let's take, for example, one of the guns Harry bought in Virginia. Harry has the gun, there is a Maryland dealer with the 4473 in his files but if Harry doesn't say who he is and know how to get in touch with him, there is no way to find him. If you do, there will be a direct link to the dealer in Virginia and the person who sold it to him but if they can't locate that person, the trail goes cold again. If they do find him and he can't locate the dealer he got it from you are still dead in the water. Every private owner is a break in the chain and there is no national database linking them. That all assumes every transaction went through a FFL to begin with and that those dealers and their records still exist. I doubt more than 10% of the dealers I bought guns from over the years are still in business or that the FFL holders are even alive. Most were used when I got them (from a dealer) and the chance of getting back to the manufacturer is nil. I have some that were sold in a number of private transactions before I bought them. They are total dead ends. Maybe not. Ballistics checks on those guns might tie them to unsolved crimes. I hope you keep your bills of sales for gun purchases. I can not find a bill of sale for luggage I bought 6 months ago that went bad. How are we to keep track of a bill of sale, even if we had one, for a gun bought 50 years ago? I sold a Ruger RedHawk to a ,friend of a friend in about 1970, and replaced with a Colt that was for sale on a note on the wall of the Martinez gun range same year. Was not required to have FFL transfer, receipt, or even to know someone in those days. You plopped down pictures of dead presidents and took possession. Same way it is still done in the inner city. I doubt I could even come up with the name of the dealers I bought most of my guns from and if you went there it might be a Starbucks. I don't know of a single one of them that is still in business. Even my 2 most recent purchases were from dealers run out of business by Bass Pro Shop. I don't have paperwork on any of them. Another good reason for a state by state or national data base. Only if he needs the paperwork. Greg - do you need the paperwork? That's fine John if all you are interested in is protecting your own ass. I thought that was one of your main arguments for the paperwork - to keep the cops off my ass. |
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#10
posted to rec.boats
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Thank you, Richard!!!
On 11/16/2014 2:40 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 14:33:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 11/16/2014 2:02 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 13:17:43 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 11/16/2014 1:13 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:40:27 -0600, Califbill wrote: Harrold wrote: On 11/16/2014 12:02 AM, wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:03:46 -0500, Roger wrote: The way I see it is if a gun is used in a crime and still has a serial number on it the first step would be for the police to contact the manufacturer. From there they would know the dealer who sold who will give them the buyers name. When they contact the buyer they will be looking for the gun and I would prefer to know who I sold it to if I didn't have it. If it was sold privately, I only have a bill of sale and a copy of their drivers license (not required but that's what I do). By transferring through a dealer we aren't forcing registration but we a taking ourselves completely out of the loop. Cops seldom even care where a gun came from. Maybe some day they might but I am not sure what purpose it would actually serve. If the gun is not fairly new, it will usually have "been around" and there will be gaps in the ownership chain. 4473s are not required to be sent to DC and the dealer can destroy them after 20 years. If the dealer goes out of business or simply dies, his 4473s and his "bound book" may just languish in a dusty box until his family throws them out.. The current system was purposely designed NOT to be a registry. Let's take, for example, one of the guns Harry bought in Virginia. Harry has the gun, there is a Maryland dealer with the 4473 in his files but if Harry doesn't say who he is and know how to get in touch with him, there is no way to find him. If you do, there will be a direct link to the dealer in Virginia and the person who sold it to him but if they can't locate that person, the trail goes cold again. If they do find him and he can't locate the dealer he got it from you are still dead in the water. Every private owner is a break in the chain and there is no national database linking them. That all assumes every transaction went through a FFL to begin with and that those dealers and their records still exist. I doubt more than 10% of the dealers I bought guns from over the years are still in business or that the FFL holders are even alive. Most were used when I got them (from a dealer) and the chance of getting back to the manufacturer is nil. I have some that were sold in a number of private transactions before I bought them. They are total dead ends. Maybe not. Ballistics checks on those guns might tie them to unsolved crimes. I hope you keep your bills of sales for gun purchases. I can not find a bill of sale for luggage I bought 6 months ago that went bad. How are we to keep track of a bill of sale, even if we had one, for a gun bought 50 years ago? I sold a Ruger RedHawk to a ,friend of a friend in about 1970, and replaced with a Colt that was for sale on a note on the wall of the Martinez gun range same year. Was not required to have FFL transfer, receipt, or even to know someone in those days. You plopped down pictures of dead presidents and took possession. Same way it is still done in the inner city. I doubt I could even come up with the name of the dealers I bought most of my guns from and if you went there it might be a Starbucks. I don't know of a single one of them that is still in business. Even my 2 most recent purchases were from dealers run out of business by Bass Pro Shop. I don't have paperwork on any of them. Another good reason for a state by state or national data base. Only if he needs the paperwork. Greg - do you need the paperwork? That's fine John if all you are interested in is protecting your own ass. I thought that was one of your main arguments for the paperwork - to keep the cops off my ass. No. The main reason for registration and a chain of custody is to provide a means of identifying who *last* legally owned the gun. Once it goes underground it becomes untraceable. By mandating registration, it will help reduce the number of guns that end up in the wrong hands. Responsible owners of legally obtained firearms should have no problem with that, in my mind. But they do. 2A stuff. Your bill of sale works for you, but what about 5, 10 or 20 years from now? Where will your Kimber .45 that you give to your nephew or someone in 2018 end up in 2029? That's what I am talking about. I've already determined where my guns will go if I still have any when I kick the bucket or become too senile to be responsible for them. I've already told my family to take the guns to the local police department and turn them in. I should add that to my will, I suppose. If any of my sons or relatives want a gun, they can go through the process like everyone else does. Actually, one son probably has more guns than I do and both he and his wife went through a much more extensive training course than I did. The other son has no interest in guns. He's a nature photographer, not a hunter. My daughter doesn't need a gun. She could beat the crap out of you with her bare hands. Cracks me up. |
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