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#2
posted to rec.boats
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Had to share this story
"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 10/31/2014 12:06 PM, wrote: On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 06:26:44 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, October 31, 2014 9:18:35 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/31/2014 9:02 AM, Poco Loco wrote: I've not seen a whole lot of fighting over background checks. Are you serious? You apparently have a short memory. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/background-checks-bill_n_3103341.html What I beleive he meant is that the American public hasn't been railing against background checks. Your linked article even points out that the measure had a 90% public approval rating. It was the politicians that didn't get the job done. They really do not explain what "universal background check" means. If they explained that I could not give my wife a shotgun for christmas without her submitting to a background check and having a federally licensed person do the "transfer", they might get a better feel for it. If I just buy the gun myself and give it to her with a bow on it under the tree, I am a "straw buyer" and she is an illegal gun owner. I think the main issue is making unreported sales of firearms at gun shows and similar venues. I remember one reporter who was able to buy anything he wanted at a show with no check, no questions asked. I saw the same or similar program. I think it was BS. The price they paid for the 3 firearms they purchased were a lot less than normal sales price. Either they were stolen or a setup. Maybe the TV people should have been prosecuted for circumventing the law. |
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#3
posted to rec.boats
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Had to share this story
On 10/31/2014 3:24 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 12:22:51 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/31/2014 12:06 PM, wrote: On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 06:26:44 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, October 31, 2014 9:18:35 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/31/2014 9:02 AM, Poco Loco wrote: I've not seen a whole lot of fighting over background checks. Are you serious? You apparently have a short memory. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/background-checks-bill_n_3103341.html What I beleive he meant is that the American public hasn't been railing against background checks. Your linked article even points out that the measure had a 90% public approval rating. It was the politicians that didn't get the job done. They really do not explain what "universal background check" means. If they explained that I could not give my wife a shotgun for christmas without her submitting to a background check and having a federally licensed person do the "transfer", they might get a better feel for it. If I just buy the gun myself and give it to her with a bow on it under the tree, I am a "straw buyer" and she is an illegal gun owner. I think the main issue is making unreported sales of firearms at gun shows and similar venues. I remember one reporter who was able to buy anything he wanted at a show with no check, no questions asked. How many crime guns have actually been traced to a gun show? You do understand a licensed dealer still needs to record "private" sales I suppose. Sure. In many states he "records" it in his little black book that is subject to audit ... maybe. Wasn't that the case in the kid who used his mother's gun to shoot up some kids at a school? The ATF hadn't checked his books for years. It also doesn't stop a private or gun show dealer sale of a firearm to a person legally prohibited from owning one. That was proven by the TV investigation where they sent a guy to gun shows and he was able to buy anything he wanted with no background check performed. |
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#4
posted to rec.boats
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Had to share this story
On 10/31/2014 8:30 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 15:34:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/31/2014 3:24 PM, wrote: How many crime guns have actually been traced to a gun show? You do understand a licensed dealer still needs to record "private" sales I suppose. Sure. In many states he "records" it in his little black book that is subject to audit ... maybe. Wasn't that the case in the kid who used his mother's gun to shoot up some kids at a school? The ATF hadn't checked his books for years. That is because none of the guns he handled were ever investigated in a crime. That should be a good thing. When they did go looking for one, the system worked. Isn't all you are looking for? It also doesn't stop a private or gun show dealer sale of a firearm to a person legally prohibited from owning one. That was proven by the TV investigation where they sent a guy to gun shows and he was able to buy anything he wanted with no background check performed. There is nothing to stop a person from selling a gun to a person who shouldn't have one. It is already illegal and making it "more" illegal is meaningless. If 10 years and $100k fine is not a deterrent, what do you think your new law would impose that would do the trick? Death? Did you read the wording on the Federal Transfer Form that John posted a link to? I am still scratching my head trying to figure out what good it does. It basically says that you can sell or transfer a firearm to a convicted felon or nut case as long as you didn't know he was a convicted felon or nut case. |
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#5
posted to rec.boats
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Had to share this story
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:10:27 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 10/31/2014 8:30 PM, wrote: On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 15:34:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/31/2014 3:24 PM, wrote: How many crime guns have actually been traced to a gun show? You do understand a licensed dealer still needs to record "private" sales I suppose. Sure. In many states he "records" it in his little black book that is subject to audit ... maybe. Wasn't that the case in the kid who used his mother's gun to shoot up some kids at a school? The ATF hadn't checked his books for years. That is because none of the guns he handled were ever investigated in a crime. That should be a good thing. When they did go looking for one, the system worked. Isn't all you are looking for? It also doesn't stop a private or gun show dealer sale of a firearm to a person legally prohibited from owning one. That was proven by the TV investigation where they sent a guy to gun shows and he was able to buy anything he wanted with no background check performed. There is nothing to stop a person from selling a gun to a person who shouldn't have one. It is already illegal and making it "more" illegal is meaningless. If 10 years and $100k fine is not a deterrent, what do you think your new law would impose that would do the trick? Death? Did you read the wording on the Federal Transfer Form that John posted a link to? I am still scratching my head trying to figure out what good it does. It basically says that you can sell or transfer a firearm to a convicted felon or nut case as long as you didn't know he was a convicted felon or nut case. The form I put a link to, 'Record of Firearms Transfer...', is not a 'Government Form' of any kind. It's more a courtesy form. I don't even know who or what originated it. |
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#6
posted to rec.boats
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Had to share this story
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#7
posted to rec.boats
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Had to share this story
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:38:07 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 11/1/2014 1:18 AM, wrote: Felons are unlikely to sign any kind of transfer form, that is the express train to the slammer, so I am not sure that is even relevant. Greg, you are therefore making the case *for* gun registration and the tracking of sales/transfers. Don't know how you got that from what Greg said. Felons making transfers are not going to worry about paperwork. From the ATF: http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons#possession-restrictions Q: Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms and/or ammunition? Yes, a person who — Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year; Is a fugitive from justice; Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance; Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution; Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa; Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship; Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence Cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm. A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information. [18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n), 27 CFR 478.32] Granted, if Joe Blow walked up and said he wanted to buy my P938, I wouldn't know if he fell into one of the categories above. So, I wouldn't sell him my gun. If he were persistent, I'd tell him to get in the car and we'd go to the nearest FFL dealer where he could pay the fee and complete the paperwork. But, if I'm transfering the gun to someone, like my son-in-law, whom I know well, then I'll just record the transfer on the form I posted earlier. Easy. |
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#8
posted to rec.boats
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Had to share this story
On 11/1/2014 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:38:07 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 11/1/2014 1:18 AM, wrote: Felons are unlikely to sign any kind of transfer form, that is the express train to the slammer, so I am not sure that is even relevant. Greg, you are therefore making the case *for* gun registration and the tracking of sales/transfers. Only if you believe the only people who sell guns would be willing to make the buyer fill out the form. BAO contended a while ago that most of the crime guns were stolen. It is clear that they would never go through legal channels again. They still move around. If you are just talking about nuts and people shooting the ones they love, registration and background checks mean nothing. Until they snap, they will be fine upstanding citizens who would pass any background check and after they go on their shooting spree, there is no problem figuring out who did it or what gun they used. Not to keep kicking a dead horse but the first part of your comment is exactly what gun registration is intended for. I sold a handgun up here in a private sale. When I bought the gun it was registered with the state identifying me as the owner. When I sold it, it was up to me to visually confirm that the buyer held a current and valid MA gun license and it was up to him to confirm I was the lawful owner. I checked his license, he checked mine, along with the dealer provided documentation of when I bought the gun. I then completed a form on-line that included my info and license number, his info and license number, the gun model and serial number. Once submitted, the gun was no longer registered to me. It is now registered to him as the owner as of the date of transfer. No FFL or fees required. |
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#9
posted to rec.boats
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Had to share this story
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 11:54:49 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 11/1/2014 11:32 AM, wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:38:07 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 11/1/2014 1:18 AM, wrote: Felons are unlikely to sign any kind of transfer form, that is the express train to the slammer, so I am not sure that is even relevant. Greg, you are therefore making the case *for* gun registration and the tracking of sales/transfers. Only if you believe the only people who sell guns would be willing to make the buyer fill out the form. BAO contended a while ago that most of the crime guns were stolen. It is clear that they would never go through legal channels again. They still move around. If you are just talking about nuts and people shooting the ones they love, registration and background checks mean nothing. Until they snap, they will be fine upstanding citizens who would pass any background check and after they go on their shooting spree, there is no problem figuring out who did it or what gun they used. Not to keep kicking a dead horse but the first part of your comment is exactly what gun registration is intended for. I sold a handgun up here in a private sale. When I bought the gun it was registered with the state identifying me as the owner. When I sold it, it was up to me to visually confirm that the buyer held a current and valid MA gun license and it was up to him to confirm I was the lawful owner. I checked his license, he checked mine, along with the dealer provided documentation of when I bought the gun. I then completed a form on-line that included my info and license number, his info and license number, the gun model and serial number. Once submitted, the gun was no longer registered to me. It is now registered to him as the owner as of the date of transfer. No FFL or fees required. You are both law-abiding citizens. Good. Now, when that gun is made illegal by the state, the state will know from whom the can expect the gun to be turned in. Or from whom they need to collect the gun...paying a 'fair' amount for it, of course. You each had to have licenses, and one of you had to have a computer. Your laws are preventing poor folks who can't even afford a voter ID from buying a gun. Shame on MA. |
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#10
posted to rec.boats
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Had to share this story
On 11/1/2014 12:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 11:54:49 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 11/1/2014 11:32 AM, wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:38:07 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 11/1/2014 1:18 AM, wrote: Felons are unlikely to sign any kind of transfer form, that is the express train to the slammer, so I am not sure that is even relevant. Greg, you are therefore making the case *for* gun registration and the tracking of sales/transfers. Only if you believe the only people who sell guns would be willing to make the buyer fill out the form. BAO contended a while ago that most of the crime guns were stolen. It is clear that they would never go through legal channels again. They still move around. If you are just talking about nuts and people shooting the ones they love, registration and background checks mean nothing. Until they snap, they will be fine upstanding citizens who would pass any background check and after they go on their shooting spree, there is no problem figuring out who did it or what gun they used. Not to keep kicking a dead horse but the first part of your comment is exactly what gun registration is intended for. I sold a handgun up here in a private sale. When I bought the gun it was registered with the state identifying me as the owner. When I sold it, it was up to me to visually confirm that the buyer held a current and valid MA gun license and it was up to him to confirm I was the lawful owner. I checked his license, he checked mine, along with the dealer provided documentation of when I bought the gun. I then completed a form on-line that included my info and license number, his info and license number, the gun model and serial number. Once submitted, the gun was no longer registered to me. It is now registered to him as the owner as of the date of transfer. No FFL or fees required. You are both law-abiding citizens. Good. Now, when that gun is made illegal by the state, the state will know from whom the can expect the gun to be turned in. Or from whom they need to collect the gun...paying a 'fair' amount for it, of course. You each had to have licenses, and one of you had to have a computer. Your laws are preventing poor folks who can't even afford a voter ID from buying a gun. Shame on MA. Pre-ban guns are not confiscated and you can still own them, buy them or sell them as long as they made before 1998 and have always been owned by someone living within the state. Banned guns made after 1998 cannot be legally purchased or acquired by any means. |
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