On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:49:42 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 07:41:43 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/1/14 10:31 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/1/2014 9:46 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 22:08:10 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Under the U.S. system, students incur tens of thousands of dollars in
debt.

===

Or their thrifty, hard working parents forgo a few luxuries for the
sake of their children.



Harry says it should be "free". Problem is nothing is "free".



Where did I say or imply college should be free? I didn't. I simply
reported that in Germany, students don't have to burden themselves with
tuition fees. Obviously, the costs are spread out over society as a
whole, which benefits from having a highly educated citizenry. Society
also benefits from having a healthy citizenry. Interesting to me, at
least, how society is moving forward in some parts of the free world and
is moving backwards in our part of the free world.

You have to note that Germany also decides at a fairly early age who
is not going to college. They get sent off the trades schools or just
get taught how a mop works.
Someone who is a "late bloomer" is going to be putting wheels on
Volkswagens or sweeping up the shop.
That is one reason why K-12 students apply themselves more than they
do in the US.

That's true in much of Europe, but here the liberals would be the
first to whine about the loss of civil rights if we made 'free'
college dependant upon achievement.

My Dutch friend's grandson finished his big tests last spring for the
university. He didn't do well enough. He gets one more chance, after a
lot of summer school, which is not free.

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 11:19:19 -0400, Poco Loco
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:49:42 -0400, wrote:


You have to note that Germany also decides at a fairly early age who
is not going to college. They get sent off the trades schools or just
get taught how a mop works.
Someone who is a "late bloomer" is going to be putting wheels on
Volkswagens or sweeping up the shop.
That is one reason why K-12 students apply themselves more than they
do in the US.

That's true in much of Europe, but here the liberals would be the
first to whine about the loss of civil rights if we made 'free'
college dependant upon achievement.

My Dutch friend's grandson finished his big tests last spring for the
university. He didn't do well enough. He gets one more chance, after a
lot of summer school, which is not free.


Oh no!
Not the "T" word.
The teachers union does not want us to actually test how well our
students are learning. They also do not want to be paid based on
performance, only time in grade and post graduate education (paid for
by the school system).

Guess they don't trust you to measure performance. Hardly surprising.

On 10/2/14 1:03 PM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 11:19:19 -0400, Poco Loco
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:49:42 -0400, wrote:


You have to note that Germany also decides at a fairly early age who
is not going to college. They get sent off the trades schools or just
get taught how a mop works.
Someone who is a "late bloomer" is going to be putting wheels on
Volkswagens or sweeping up the shop.
That is one reason why K-12 students apply themselves more than they
do in the US.

That's true in much of Europe, but here the liberals would be the
first to whine about the loss of civil rights if we made 'free'
college dependant upon achievement.

My Dutch friend's grandson finished his big tests last spring for the
university. He didn't do well enough. He gets one more chance, after a
lot of summer school, which is not free.


Oh no!
Not the "T" word.
The teachers union does not want us to actually test how well our
students are learning. They also do not want to be paid based on
performance, only time in grade and post graduate education (paid for
by the school system).

Guess they don't trust you to measure performance. Hardly surprising.



The problem with the "performance testing" is that too much of it is
dependent upon rote memory. It does not test whether the kids are
learning how to think. The other major problem, of course, is that it
penalizes teachers (scapegoats) for situations entirely beyond their
control, such as a bad home environment. Another problem: sometimes a
good teacher is replaced mid-semester by a retired racist old Army fart
who does his best to see that minority kids fail.

On Thu, 2 Oct 2014 12:03:28 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 11:19:19 -0400, Poco Loco
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:49:42 -0400, wrote:


You have to note that Germany also decides at a fairly early age who
is not going to college. They get sent off the trades schools or just
get taught how a mop works.
Someone who is a "late bloomer" is going to be putting wheels on
Volkswagens or sweeping up the shop.
That is one reason why K-12 students apply themselves more than they
do in the US.

That's true in much of Europe, but here the liberals would be the
first to whine about the loss of civil rights if we made 'free'
college dependant upon achievement.

My Dutch friend's grandson finished his big tests last spring for the
university. He didn't do well enough. He gets one more chance, after a
lot of summer school, which is not free.


Oh no!
Not the "T" word.
The teachers union does not want us to actually test how well our
students are learning. They also do not want to be paid based on
performance, only time in grade and post graduate education (paid for
by the school system).

Guess they don't trust you to measure performance. Hardly surprising.

Where did Greg say he would measure performance?

Your response made absolutely no sense. Hardly surprising.

On 10/2/14 2:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 2 Oct 2014 12:03:28 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 11:19:19 -0400, Poco Loco
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:49:42 -0400, wrote:


You have to note that Germany also decides at a fairly early age who
is not going to college. They get sent off the trades schools or just
get taught how a mop works.
Someone who is a "late bloomer" is going to be putting wheels on
Volkswagens or sweeping up the shop.
That is one reason why K-12 students apply themselves more than they
do in the US.

That's true in much of Europe, but here the liberals would be the
first to whine about the loss of civil rights if we made 'free'
college dependant upon achievement.

My Dutch friend's grandson finished his big tests last spring for the
university. He didn't do well enough. He gets one more chance, after a
lot of summer school, which is not free.


Oh no!
Not the "T" word.
The teachers union does not want us to actually test how well our
students are learning. They also do not want to be paid based on
performance, only time in grade and post graduate education (paid for
by the school system).

Guess they don't trust you to measure performance. Hardly surprising.

Who said anything about ME measuring anything except the insanities
brought by the unions. We were talking about 3d party testing of the
students.


At least you are consistent in your obvious *and* subtle arguments to
turn workers into "at will" serfs, under the total domination of
"corporations uber alles," and by corporations I mean employers.

On 10/2/14 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:55:25 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 2:49 PM, wrote:

Who said anything about ME measuring anything except the insanities
brought by the unions. We were talking about 3d party testing of the
students.


At least you are consistent in your obvious *and* subtle arguments to
turn workers into "at will" serfs, under the total domination of
"corporations uber alles," and by corporations I mean employers.

Does that jerky knee bother you in the car? I bet you have dents in
the dash ;-)

What does any of this have to do with "corporations". These are
government schools.

If you actually looked at what I said in the parts you clipped I said
teachers should be paid for performance, not simply time in grade.
I understand that goes against the union mentality but we can see the
result.
It is not a measure of the average of the class. Performance should be
weighted by the improvement of each student.
I also think we should be throwing more money at the teachers who have
the toughest teachers as long as they are improving.

A big problem is the ignorant thugs. If we single them out for
additional discipline or even extra academic attention, you bump up
against the fact that they may screw up the "diversity" numbers.
Montgomery County had that problem


I defined corporations as employers. You don't think many large school
systems are operated just as ****-poorly as, say, Verizon or Comcast?
Corporate mindset.

How do you honestly pay teachers for "performance" when there are so
many outside factors and pressures that bear, and most of these are
beyond the control of the teachers. When we first moved here, I injured
my leg and while I was waiting for the doc in the ER, there was a guy
and his daughter in the next curtained booth. I don't know what the
reason for their visit was, but the nurse asked the dad what his
occupation was, and his response was, "Occupation, what does that mean?"
"What you do for a living," the nurse said.

Whoever taught that kid of his had to take into account the fact that
her dad was...uneducated and ignorant. How would you suggest that the
teacher deal with that student and overcome the home problems? And what
if the teacher has 15 of those kids in a class of 35?

On 10/2/14 6:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:36:16 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:55:25 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 2:49 PM, wrote:

Who said anything about ME measuring anything except the insanities
brought by the unions. We were talking about 3d party testing of the
students.


At least you are consistent in your obvious *and* subtle arguments to
turn workers into "at will" serfs, under the total domination of
"corporations uber alles," and by corporations I mean employers.

Does that jerky knee bother you in the car? I bet you have dents in
the dash ;-)

What does any of this have to do with "corporations". These are
government schools.

If you actually looked at what I said in the parts you clipped I said
teachers should be paid for performance, not simply time in grade.
I understand that goes against the union mentality but we can see the
result.
It is not a measure of the average of the class. Performance should be
weighted by the improvement of each student.
I also think we should be throwing more money at the teachers who have
the toughest teachers as long as they are improving.

A big problem is the ignorant thugs. If we single them out for
additional discipline or even extra academic attention, you bump up
against the fact that they may screw up the "diversity" numbers.
Montgomery County had that problem


I defined corporations as employers. You don't think many large school
systems are operated just as ****-poorly as, say, Verizon or Comcast?
Corporate mindset.


The difference is, if I think Comcast is incompetent and I do, I
don't have to pay them. I have a satellite dish.
We pay for the public schools whether they perform or not so there is
far less incentive to improve. The teacher's union further impedes any
effort they attempt.
As I showed you before, our school board is 80% education community
apparachiks anyway so there is not much actual management vs labor
going on anyway.

How do you honestly pay teachers for "performance" when there are so
many outside factors and pressures that bear, and most of these are
beyond the control of the teachers. When we first moved here, I injured
my leg and while I was waiting for the doc in the ER, there was a guy
and his daughter in the next curtained booth. I don't know what the
reason for their visit was, but the nurse asked the dad what his
occupation was, and his response was, "Occupation, what does that mean?"
"What you do for a living," the nurse said.

Whoever taught that kid of his had to take into account the fact that
her dad was...uneducated and ignorant. How would you suggest that the
teacher deal with that student and overcome the home problems? And what
if the teacher has 15 of those kids in a class of 35?

It would certainly make sense if they were free to try different
things and reward the teachers who had success,

Right now they simply do the same thing over and over again expecting
a different result.



Classroom teachers, for the most part, are not "free" to try "different
things" that haven't been approved in advance by school administrators.
This doesn't mean they don't know how...it just means there is not much
variance allowed.

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 18:51:47 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Classroom teachers, for the most part, are not "free" to try "different
things" that haven't been approved in advance by school administrators.
This doesn't mean they don't know how...it just means there is not much
variance allowed.

===

What nonsense. Teachers have to teach the subject matter but their
style, effectiveness and commitment vary enormously.

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 20:07:42 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 18:51:47 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Classroom teachers, for the most part, are not "free" to try "different
things" that haven't been approved in advance by school administrators.
This doesn't mean they don't know how...it just means there is not much
variance allowed.

===

What nonsense. Teachers have to teach the subject matter but their
style, effectiveness and commitment vary enormously.

The lack of knowledge about teaching displayed by Krause and his
buddy, BAO, is unreal.

You're correct, teachers are given the learning objectives for their
subject and grade. In Virginia, these objectives are listed in the
Standards of Learning. The manner in which the teacher enables the
students to accomplish the objectives is up to the teacher. A half
dozen teachers teaching the same subject will probably be using a half
dozen different techniques to do so.

In article ,
says...

The teachers union does not want us to actually test how well our
students are learning. They also do not want to be paid based on
performance, only time in grade and post graduate education (paid for
by the school system).

Guess they don't trust you to measure performance. Hardly surprising.

Who said anything about ME measuring anything except the insanities
brought by the unions. We were talking about 3d party testing of the
students.

What's your solution? I'm sure nearly everybody with any experience in
education will disagree with it.