On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 11:38:53 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 11:19:19 -0400, Poco Loco
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:49:42 -0400, wrote:


You have to note that Germany also decides at a fairly early age who
is not going to college. They get sent off the trades schools or just
get taught how a mop works.
Someone who is a "late bloomer" is going to be putting wheels on
Volkswagens or sweeping up the shop.
That is one reason why K-12 students apply themselves more than they
do in the US.

That's true in much of Europe, but here the liberals would be the
first to whine about the loss of civil rights if we made 'free'
college dependant upon achievement.

My Dutch friend's grandson finished his big tests last spring for the
university. He didn't do well enough. He gets one more chance, after a
lot of summer school, which is not free.


Oh no!
Not the "T" word.
The teachers union does not want us to actually test how well our
students are learning. They also do not want to be paid based on
performance, only time in grade and post graduate education (paid for
by the school system).

Absolutely correct. Been there and seen that.

On 9/30/2014 11:19 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 22:08:10 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Last German state to do away with university tuition fees

The Times
September 23, 2014 7:00AM


ALL GERMAN universities will be free of charge when term starts next
week after fees were abandoned in Lower Saxony, the last of seven states
to charge.

“Tuition fees are socially unjust,� said Dorothee Stapelfeldt, senator
for science in Hamburg, which scrapped charges in 2012.

“They particularly discourage young people who do not have a traditional
academic family background from taking up studies. It is a core task of
politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high
quality standard free of charge in Germany.�

The experiment with tuition fees, which began in 2006, was overturned by
democratic pressure against the conservative-led state governments, all
in the west of Germany, which decided to charge euros 1,000 ($A1436) a year.

They were able to do so after a constitutional court ruling that
moderate fees combined with loans did not contradict the country’s
commitment to universal higher education.

Within eight years, all the states have changed their minds, with Lower
Saxony the last to give way after the defeat of its Christian Democrat
rulers last year. It means that this autumn’s student intake will enjoy
free university courses.

“We got rid of tuition fees because we do not want higher education
which depends on the wealth of the parents,� said Gabriele
Heinen-Kljajic of the Green party, the minister for science and culture
in Lower Saxony.

Under Germany’s federal system, state governments run education policy.

_ _ _

Under the U.S. system, students incur tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

Maybe if our universities only charged $1500 a year, I would agree
with federal funding.


Do you really want politicians running our educational system?
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2...PsL/story.html

On 9/30/2014 11:19 PM, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 22:08:10 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Last German state to do away with university tuition fees

The Times
September 23, 2014 7:00AM


ALL GERMAN universities will be free of charge when term starts next
week after fees were abandoned in Lower Saxony, the last of seven states
to charge.

“Tuition fees are socially unjust,� said Dorothee Stapelfeldt, senator
for science in Hamburg, which scrapped charges in 2012.

“They particularly discourage young people who do not have a traditional
academic family background from taking up studies. It is a core task of
politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high
quality standard free of charge in Germany.�

The experiment with tuition fees, which began in 2006, was overturned by
democratic pressure against the conservative-led state governments, all
in the west of Germany, which decided to charge euros 1,000 ($A1436)
a year.

They were able to do so after a constitutional court ruling that
moderate fees combined with loans did not contradict the country’s
commitment to universal higher education.

Within eight years, all the states have changed their minds, with Lower
Saxony the last to give way after the defeat of its Christian Democrat
rulers last year. It means that this autumn’s student intake will enjoy
free university courses.

“We got rid of tuition fees because we do not want higher education
which depends on the wealth of the parents,� said Gabriele
Heinen-Kljajic of the Green party, the minister for science and culture
in Lower Saxony.

Under Germany’s federal system, state governments run education policy.

_ _ _

Under the U.S. system, students incur tens of thousands of dollars in
debt.

Maybe if our universities only charged $1500 a year, I would agree
with federal funding.



Just what the USA needs. Federally financed "free" college. Heck, it's
only another entitlement program to add to the list that has grown by
over 700 percent since 1960. With federal (tax payer) financing comes
standardization and government "approved" courses of study. Yup, that's
the way to level the playing field.

There are many ways to acquire a college degree that don't require
tuition loans and the generation of a huge debt. You may (gasp) have to
*earn* your tuition payments either through work/school programs, GI
bill benefits, employer assisted education programs, scholarships, etc.

Another thing. In the real world that employs the vast majority of
people, the particular school you attended really doesn't mean much.
It's far more important that you went. People who struggled through
school attending community colleges and then continue on to a four year
degree are just as valuable (if not more) to most employers than the
graduate of a prestigious Ivy League University.

I'd like to see some regulation on how colleges and universities spend
their funds through. A requirement to spend 80 or 90 percent of
received revenues on actual education direct costs might work. Students
should not be helping to pay for expansion programs or some academic's
favorite research project out of their tuition payments.

On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 09:45:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

People who struggled through
school attending community colleges and then continue on to a four year
degree are just as valuable (if not more) to most employers than the
graduate of a prestigious Ivy League University.

===

People who graduate from a first rate (prestigious) school gain access
to a vast network of peer acquaintances and referrals however. That
can be priceless.

On 10/1/2014 10:07 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 09:45:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

People who struggled through
school attending community colleges and then continue on to a four year
degree are just as valuable (if not more) to most employers than the
graduate of a prestigious Ivy League University.

===

People who graduate from a first rate (prestigious) school gain access
to a vast network of peer acquaintances and referrals however. That
can be priceless.


It's called "pay to play".. it keeps the riff-raff on the outside. On
the whole it's great for those who can afford it, but probably not so
great for society in general as it keeps a lot of the creme from rising
to the top...

On 10/1/2014 10:13 PM, KC wrote:
On 10/1/2014 10:07 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 09:45:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

People who struggled through
school attending community colleges and then continue on to a four year
degree are just as valuable (if not more) to most employers than the
graduate of a prestigious Ivy League University.

===

People who graduate from a first rate (prestigious) school gain access
to a vast network of peer acquaintances and referrals however. That
can be priceless.


It's called "pay to play".. it keeps the riff-raff on the outside. On
the whole it's great for those who can afford it, but probably not so
great for society in general as it keeps a lot of the creme from rising
to the top...


The vast majority of college grads did not attend Ivy League schools.
If you plan to be a lawyer, doctor or politician I guess it's important
but to the average work-a-bee the school you attended doesn't mean as
much as the fact that you have a relevant degree.

KC wrote:
On 10/1/2014 10:07 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 09:45:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

People who struggled through
school attending community colleges and then continue on to a four year
degree are just as valuable (if not more) to most employers than the
graduate of a prestigious Ivy League University.

===

People who graduate from a first rate (prestigious) school gain access
to a vast network of peer acquaintances and referrals however. That
can be priceless.


It's called "pay to play".. it keeps the riff-raff on the outside. On the
whole it's great for those who can afford it, but probably not so great
for society in general as it keeps a lot of the creme from rising to the top...

I worked and went to college. If you have the grades out of HS and the
aptitude, go to Stanford. Family make less than $70k and you get full ride
subsidized.

On 10/1/2014 10:07 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 09:45:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

People who struggled through
school attending community colleges and then continue on to a four year
degree are just as valuable (if not more) to most employers than the
graduate of a prestigious Ivy League University.

===

People who graduate from a first rate (prestigious) school gain access
to a vast network of peer acquaintances and referrals however. That
can be priceless.



I understand but the average Joe in the workforce is not going to
benefit in that way. Most companies really don't care what school you
went to as long as your education meets the job requirements and you
have the knowledge and skill sets.

On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 22:41:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/1/2014 10:07 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 09:45:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

People who struggled through
school attending community colleges and then continue on to a four year
degree are just as valuable (if not more) to most employers than the
graduate of a prestigious Ivy League University.

===

People who graduate from a first rate (prestigious) school gain access
to a vast network of peer acquaintances and referrals however. That
can be priceless.



I understand but the average Joe in the workforce is not going to
benefit in that way. Most companies really don't care what school you
went to as long as your education meets the job requirements and you
have the knowledge and skill sets.

===

Understood but it depends on your aspirations. In certain fields
and at more senior levels, it is a very important way of pole vaulting
over the entry level positions.

On 10/1/2014 10:41 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/1/2014 10:07 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Oct 2014 09:45:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

People who struggled through
school attending community colleges and then continue on to a four year
degree are just as valuable (if not more) to most employers than the
graduate of a prestigious Ivy League University.

===

People who graduate from a first rate (prestigious) school gain access
to a vast network of peer acquaintances and referrals however. That
can be priceless.



I understand but the average Joe in the workforce is not going to
benefit in that way. Most companies really don't care what school you
went to as long as your education meets the job requirements and you
have the knowledge and skill sets.

He wasn't talking about the average joe, and he wasn't talking about
"job requirements", he was talking about the "good old boys network" you
become a part of if your parents can afford to send you to one of the
more "prestigious schools"...