|
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__ wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball sensormatic rotational assist'. Where you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't look at women when operating this vessel." Sometimes the sign gets torn away. When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp outboard. I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't move, sit in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side or the other. Worked fine in large ponds. Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a motorcycle and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just sayin'. No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try this? Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward gently and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar. Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in breaking loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun however, if you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of forward:) Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the suspension or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the track... What is the fastest way around the track? Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you are countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and the drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back... How can you be efficient in the corners? Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other. You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust... Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape again. :-) Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering. The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the most efficient way to make a corner... You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking about... Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)... Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees... But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be "racing" on the street anyway:) |
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/2014 3:49 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:05:39 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__ wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball sensormatic rotational assist'. Where you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't look at women when operating this vessel." Sometimes the sign gets torn away. When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp outboard. I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't move, sit in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side or the other. Worked fine in large ponds. Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a motorcycle and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just sayin'. No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try this? Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward gently and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar. Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in breaking loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun however, if you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of forward:) Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the suspension or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the track... What is the fastest way around the track? Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you are countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and the drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back... How can you be efficient in the corners? Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other. You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust... Don't countersteer. Try turning the handlebars to the right next time you want to turn right. Do it at about 50 mph. Make sure your insurance is paid up. Can I start to lean first? If so, no problem.. Again, we do not lead with the front end of the bike... we steer with the rear end. The most efficient use of the power is for the front and rear wheel to be lined up, and the rear wheel tracking forward, not sideways... period... draw it out, you understand how to sail, you can get this. Again, countersteering is a common and useful tool, just not for us... |
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/2014 3:52 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:15:41 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 12:35 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:44:07 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:20 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:33:01 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:06 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:42 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:06:41 -0500, BAR wrote: In article , __ says... Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. Just like a motor cycle, you just lean into the turn to make it go that way. No, leaning doesn't make it turn. Leaning enables the motorcycle to be kept more vertical when turning. Pushing on the handlebar makes you turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Countersteering. Heh. I just mentioned to Scott about that. Those who don't ride will think it's weird. They think it should turn like a car. Yes, counter steering but again, it's not the fastest way around the corner:) It's the only way around the corner, at speed, on a motorcycle. I am beating myself up and I can't think of any place on the track where counter steering is faster... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202016412913497&set=a.10202016402 113227.1073741828.1281248494&type=3&theater Here is Jess setting up for a corner... notice she is turning left, and her bars are slightly left.. If she let her back tire slide out more (blowing the corner) the bike would have to stand back up and the back tire come back in line to get out of the corner... don't know if that makes any sense. I have a video I could find later of two riders me and Jess study. One came though the corner right (her mentor) and the guy behind counter steered through and lost two seconds in the corner... Letting the back tire 'slide out more' is not a method of riding for anyone but dirt bikers. When she initiated the turn to the left, she did it by pushing on the left bar or pulling on the right bar. Once the bike started leaning (and turning) she can slide all she wants. I think what she is doing in the picture is coming out of a turn. So she's pushing on the right bar to straighten the bike up (or pulling on the left bar). Looking at the tracks in the dirt also shows that she's through the turn. That picture is in the first 30 feet of the turn.. and no. She doesn't have to push the left down to initiate the turn. Some turns she comes into airborne and she already has the bars turned in the direction of the turn... I see completely what you guys are talking about. I have had a mc licence since '76 and always thought that way... Until I started training Jess. She comes into a corner and throws her weight over the bike.. but pushes both bars down... the outside bar further... never the inside bar, never let that rear tire get outside of the radius of the front tire...... Just the way it is.:) Again, if she pushes down on the inside bar, the rear tire kicks outside the radius of the inside tire. now you have thrust pushing askew from the direction of the bike... we calle it "wash out" or "blowing the berm".. draw it out, put arrows for thrust.. You will see... Uh-huh. I just hope Jess, while on pavement going at speed, doesn't ever push left to go right. Something will get broke. OK, let's go from there.. When you are countersteering on the street, by design the thrust of the rear tire and front tire are not in sync with the direction of the turn.. So which tire do you slide? |
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__ wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball sensormatic rotational assist'. Where you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't look at women when operating this vessel." Sometimes the sign gets torn away. When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp outboard. I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't move, sit in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side or the other. Worked fine in large ponds. Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a motorcycle and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just sayin'. No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try this? Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward gently and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar. Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in breaking loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun however, if you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of forward:) Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the suspension or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the track... What is the fastest way around the track? Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you are countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and the drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back... How can you be efficient in the corners? Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other. You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust... Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape again. :-) Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering. The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the most efficient way to make a corner... You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking about... Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)... Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees... But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be "racing" on the street anyway:) Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the last turn I ever made. |
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__ wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball sensormatic rotational assist'. Where you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't look at women when operating this vessel." Sometimes the sign gets torn away. When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp outboard. I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't move, sit in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side or the other. Worked fine in large ponds. Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a motorcycle and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just sayin'. No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try this? Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward gently and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar. Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in breaking loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun however, if you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of forward:) Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the suspension or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the track... What is the fastest way around the track? Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you are countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and the drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back... How can you be efficient in the corners? Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other. You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust... Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape again. :-) Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering. The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the most efficient way to make a corner... You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking about... Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)... Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees... But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be "racing" on the street anyway:) Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the last turn I ever made. Yup... Imagine so. I had times where I slid my Honda into a countersteer slide when I was younger. Never intentionally though:) It was half the weight of your bike too... |
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__ wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball sensormatic rotational assist'. Where you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't look at women when operating this vessel." Sometimes the sign gets torn away. When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp outboard. I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't move, sit in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side or the other. Worked fine in large ponds. Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a motorcycle and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just sayin'. No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try this? Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward gently and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar. Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in breaking loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun however, if you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of forward:) Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the suspension or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the track... What is the fastest way around the track? Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you are countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and the drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back... How can you be efficient in the corners? Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other. You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust... Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape again. :-) Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering. The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the most efficient way to make a corner... You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking about... Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)... Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees... But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be "racing" on the street anyway:) Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the last turn I ever made. At the same time there's this.. I looked for a while for one of these bikes "countersteering" but they are all doing what I said we do:) https://www.google.com/search?q=gpx+corner&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=x ev7Upn5IoSMqQGT-IGgBA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=667#q=motorcycl e+corner&tbm=isch ....even on the street... Again, if you are countersteering you are scrubbing off forward thrust, sideways and off the radius (inside) of the turn.... |
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/14, 10:31 AM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 1:09 PM, Bill McKee wrote: On 2/12/14, 10:02 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 12:38 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 12:12:22 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 12:03 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:40 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:38:48 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:20 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:33:01 -0500, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:06 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:42 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:06:41 -0500, BAR wrote: In article , __ says... Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. Just like a motor cycle, you just lean into the turn to make it go that way. No, leaning doesn't make it turn. Leaning enables the motorcycle to be kept more vertical when turning. Pushing on the handlebar makes you turn. Push left, go left. Push right, go right. Countersteering. Heh. I just mentioned to Scott about that. Those who don't ride will think it's weird. They think it should turn like a car. Yes, counter steering but again, it's not the fastest way around the corner:) It's the only way around the corner, at speed, on a motorcycle. No it's not.... if you are countersteering, your drive wheel is way outside the most efficient line and needs to come back before you can get traction and get out of the corner... You countersteer to get the bike to lean, once leaned you can skid on around. But, you first have to get the turn started. Trust me, .01 seconds coming in and going out...Way too much sideways, not enough forward.... Look, I put the stopwatch to this **** every day, I trained my daughter to corner "as good as any body in the division"... But I am not gonna' argue any more with it. Let me take it one step further... I get what you are saying Dick but that's old school... we now "get the turn started" by drawing slightly on the front brake and using throttle (not brakes) to break away the back end. Now I can "get into the corner" without spending all that time (.003 seconds??) wobbling back and fourth instead of going forward... I know it seems like a tiny thing, but again, the secret I just told you is "very new school" and Jess was one of the first to embrace it three years ago..... It works, period. I saw her corner circles around a WMA pro a few weeks back... Jaws dropped for sure... Fine. You're dirt riding and sliding, without leaning for the turn. You're not really 'steering' through the turn but sliding through the turn. However, if she's turning left and she leans the bike to the left, she did it by countersteering. Ok, guess we won't see eye to eye. I think of counter steering as turning left, with the bars slightly right.... Either way, here's another thing to take into consideration... "New School" is to steer with the back end, not the front end anyway:) If the bike is leaning, you are not going straight. Unless you turn the front wheel. Leaning the bike, changes angles. Think like trying to make a cone roll in a straight line. leaning the bike, inplies a cone shape. Yup, and rolling a cone with a small end on the left will turn left.. even for a while if one side loses "some" traction.. At some point however if you lose too much traction on one side the cone would roll right or have to be "counter steered".. At that point, forward force degrades... I gotta' find that video... It will never 'roll right'. It may slide, but it will not roll. |
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/14, 1:46 PM, KC wrote:
On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__ wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball sensormatic rotational assist'. Where you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't look at women when operating this vessel." Sometimes the sign gets torn away. When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp outboard. I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't move, sit in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side or the other. Worked fine in large ponds. Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a motorcycle and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just sayin'. No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try this? Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward gently and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar. Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in breaking loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun however, if you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of forward:) Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the suspension or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the track... What is the fastest way around the track? Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you are countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and the drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back... How can you be efficient in the corners? Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other. You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust... Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape again. :-) Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering. The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the most efficient way to make a corner... You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking about... Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)... Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees... But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be "racing" on the street anyway:) Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the last turn I ever made. Yup... Imagine so. I had times where I slid my Honda into a countersteer slide when I was younger. Never intentionally though:) It was half the weight of your bike too... Hell, no wonder I did not win every race with my Vette. I was drifting corners at times. The old Laguna Course, turn 2 was always able to go faster than you figured as the apex of the corner started up hill. Loading the suspension and increasing traction. Turn 3 was a very highspeed turn and you drifted it at about 130 mph. |
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/2014 4:57 PM, Bill McKee wrote:
On 2/12/14, 1:46 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__ wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball sensormatic rotational assist'. Where you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't look at women when operating this vessel." Sometimes the sign gets torn away. When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp outboard. I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't move, sit in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side or the other. Worked fine in large ponds. Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a motorcycle and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just sayin'. No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try this? Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward gently and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar. Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in breaking loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun however, if you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of forward:) Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the suspension or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the track... What is the fastest way around the track? Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you are countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and the drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back... How can you be efficient in the corners? Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other. You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust... Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape again. :-) Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering. The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the most efficient way to make a corner... You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking about... Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)... Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees... But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be "racing" on the street anyway:) Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the last turn I ever made. Yup... Imagine so. I had times where I slid my Honda into a countersteer slide when I was younger. Never intentionally though:) It was half the weight of your bike too... Hell, no wonder I did not win every race with my Vette. I was drifting corners at times. The old Laguna Course, turn 2 was always able to go faster than you figured as the apex of the corner started up hill. Loading the suspension and increasing traction. Turn 3 was a very highspeed turn and you drifted it at about 130 mph. Sure... if that's what the corner is for or if it's a tight radius... |
A real dirt bike...
On 2/12/2014 4:57 PM, Bill McKee wrote:
On 2/12/14, 1:46 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 4:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 4:10 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:36 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 3:05 PM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 2:47 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:59:51 -0500, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:37 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 11:23 AM, HanK wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:40 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:31 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 10:04 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:36 AM, KC wrote: On 2/12/2014 9:17 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/12/2014 8:09 AM, Poco Loco wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:27:03 -0500, Earl__ wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/9/2014 6:25 PM, Poco Loco wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:03:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:30:04 PM UTC-6, John H. wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:31:40 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:31:31 AM UTC-6, F.O.A.D. wrote: I'd love to have one of these... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7mTwM7afQA how about something like this? http://thekneeslider.com/1937-front-...cle-prototype/ Looks like something Moto Guzzi made during the war. "Goose" probably tries something like that too, but this is French, and the French at that time were known to be great tinkerers, with results to match. Yeah, I should have said it looks like something Guzzi *could* have made during the war. Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cOlS_ShXf4 Here's an idea for Scott: (warning - contains boating content) http://www.elrellano.com/videos_online/8146/barca-a-motor.html No steering unless that rowboat has a bow thruster. That boat is a high technology marvel incorporating 'eyeball sensormatic rotational assist'. Where you look is where you go. A sign on the bow says, "Don't look at women when operating this vessel." Sometimes the sign gets torn away. When I was a kid I had a 12' aluminum boat with a little 3hp outboard. I'd tighten the tension on the steering so the motor wouldn't move, sit in the middle seat and steer just by leaning towards one side or the other. Worked fine in large ponds. Somebody said "like a motorcycle"... But if you simply lean a motorcycle and don't turn the wheel, it will still go straight... Just sayin'. No, you have to tip the boat. Speaking of motorcycles, ever try this? Ride going straight ahead and push your *left* handlebar forward gently and see which way you turn. Then try with the *right* handlebar. Yeah, that's how she takes every turn... Reverse steer. Add in breaking loose the rear tire and you are starting to have some fun however, if you do though, you are losing time going sideways instead of forward:) Just reread that... I should say she counter steers when the suspension or body position is off... But it's not the fastest way around the track... What is the fastest way around the track? Ok, the fastest way involves being efficient in the corners. If you are countersteering n a corner, you are standing the bike too high, and the drive wheel is not taking the shortest distance around the corner. In racing terms, you blew out the birm.. It's not efficient to have that back tire way out there cause then it takes time to bring it back... How can you be efficient in the corners? Balance.. Keep both tires in as close to the same radius as the other. You want the front tire pointing as close to the direction of thrust from the rear tire as possible. If you are "countersteering" you are losing forward thrust and burning off forward thrust... Geeze. I'll never enjoy a warm summer evening cruise down to the Cape again. :-) Sure you will. Like you said you are not racing... I said before I get the whole thing about getting into a corner and even counter steering. The looser you are, the more you do it too.... but it's still not the most efficient way to make a corner... You guys are all supposed to be sailors.. Draw the thing out and draw out the thrust and resistance lines... you will see what I am talking about... Anyway, I have a good drawing that I can put up later. For now I will say there are a couple other things we do to make the bike corner better. One in particular is to gently pull the front brake in and dip the front end which shortens the turning radius and increases the angle of the front suspension more upright to turn.. (more like a tricycle)... Even dipping the front end a couple inches reduces the bike length by as much as an inch and can change the rake of the front end 8-10 degrees... But again, you are not racing. If I was you I would be countersteering all the way to the beach. I know how good it feels and I wouldn't be "racing" on the street anyway:) Phew. I was getting worried there. It's sorta hard to steer a 850lb Harley with the back tire. Even if I could, it would probably be the last turn I ever made. Yup... Imagine so. I had times where I slid my Honda into a countersteer slide when I was younger. Never intentionally though:) It was half the weight of your bike too... Hell, no wonder I did not win every race with my Vette. I was drifting corners at times. The old Laguna Course, turn 2 was always able to go faster than you figured as the apex of the corner started up hill. Loading the suspension and increasing traction. Turn 3 was a very highspeed turn and you drifted it at about 130 mph. Here's my point... You drifted that corner at 130, scrubbing forward speed off in the drift... How about I come behind you in a formula racer that can take the corner without countersteering and breaking traction.. how fast do you think that car might make that corner with all the hp pushing it forward?? |
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