On 6/28/2013 7:08 PM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, June 28, 2013 11:12:43 AM UTC-5, thumper wrote:

Complaining that church policy is dictated from above? That's funny...
http://www.clergyproject.org/

I really don't know where you got the notion that I was directing my comment in such a way, or how your link even applies to what I was speaking of, but I'm glad you posted it anyhow. Because I see a double standard in one of the articles:

From Minister To Atheist: A Story Of Losing Faith
Read full article
April 30, 2012
NPR - by Barbara Bradley Hagerty

"...Teresa MacBain has a secret, one she’s terrified to reveal. “I’m currently an active pastor and I’m also an atheist,” she says. “I live a double life. I feel pretty good on Monday, but by Thursday — when Sunday’s right around the corner — I start having stomachaches, headaches, just knowing that I got to stand up and say things that I no longer believe in and portray myself in a way that’s totally false.”

So, I take it that because Teresa MacBain preaches against her beliefs (or lack of) because she feels forced to in some way (...just knowing that I got to stand up and say things that I no longer believe in and portray myself in a way that’s totally false.”) that she is to be felt sorry for?

Yet threatening to ruin a pastors retirement and/or revoking his ordination to force him to marry homosexuals against his convictions is justifiable?

hmmm.


It's an organization that assists members of the clergy who no longer
share the ideology of their church administration and need to make a
change. It recognizes the complex practical and social consequences of
such a separation.

Sympathy is not the point.

On 6/28/13 10:19 PM, Tim wrote:
On Friday, June 28, 2013 5:00:01 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 6/28/13 1:26 AM, Tim wrote:

On Thursday, June 27, 2013 8:48:28 PM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 6/27/13 8:53 PM, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote:



On 6/27/2013 6:29 PM, Tim wrote:



On Thursday, June 27, 2013 4:05:42 PM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:











What we will get is activists going from Church to Church suing those







who will not marry them. The long term is to drive the Churches from







their business... They just do it so much better than the Govt, the



left







hates that.















More absurdities.







Not really, Harry.







I have a friend who is a pastor of an old line denomination who's



beliefs have been steering towards social 'gay rights' for some time.



He doesn't believe in 'gay marriage' but stands on the core of 'man



and woman'. However, he is afraid that if the deciding powers of the



church's national, or state (or even regional) council says he must



perform same-sex marriages, then he feels he will be forced to abide.



OR, he feels that there is a chance that he could be civilly charged



in a discrimination suite, maybe lose his retirement and/or possibly



forfeit his ordination license to preach in that denomination.







Seriously.











The folks on the other side of that know what they are after, they are



just not honest enough to face it up front...











Face what...that you shouldn't be discriminating against gays? If you



work for a company and it sets a policy that applies to the company and



is legal and you don't like the policy, your choices are simple...either



go along or get out. Is there something about being an employee of a



church that allows you to thumb your nose at church policy?



Harry, call it what you want, but this is a matter of religious freedom being possibly jeopardized by being forced into compliance.





Is there religious freedom involved when the folks who run the church

tell the pastor what to do?

Harry, I really don't know how to rationally answer your question, but to say that if the denomination tells you to tow their line regardless of your convictions, then speaking for myself, I'd say say 'no'

And the reason I say that is because the denomination has changed it's stance moral stance on social issues within the past 20 or so years. In other words 'it ain't what it used to be"



So, a minister can be like any other employee. If stands on issues
change, the minister can either change with them or more on. As far as
losing a pension goes, that, sadly, happens to too many Americans. We
are a country in which worker bees have no rights and in most cases,
recourse. As Tennessee Ernie Ford used to sing, "We owe our soul to the
company store."

I don't like that, but that is the way it is in this country. We're
backwards in what matters most to our people.

On Friday, June 28, 2013 8:55:58 AM UTC-5, iBoaterer wrote:
In article ,

says...



On Thursday, June 27, 2013 8:48:28 PM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:

On 6/27/13 8:53 PM, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote:



On 6/27/2013 6:29 PM, Tim wrote:



On Thursday, June 27, 2013 4:05:42 PM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:











What we will get is activists going from Church to Church suing those







who will not marry them. The long term is to drive the Churches from







their business... They just do it so much better than the Govt, the



left







hates that.















More absurdities.







Not really, Harry.







I have a friend who is a pastor of an old line denomination who's



beliefs have been steering towards social 'gay rights' for some time.



He doesn't believe in 'gay marriage' but stands on the core of 'man



and woman'. However, he is afraid that if the deciding powers of the



church's national, or state (or even regional) council says he must



perform same-sex marriages, then he feels he will be forced to abide.



OR, he feels that there is a chance that he could be civilly charged



in a discrimination suite, maybe lose his retirement and/or possibly



forfeit his ordination license to preach in that denomination.







Seriously.











The folks on the other side of that know what they are after, they are



just not honest enough to face it up front...











Face what...that you shouldn't be discriminating against gays? If you



work for a company and it sets a policy that applies to the company and



is legal and you don't like the policy, your choices are simple...either



go along or get out. Is there something about being an employee of a



church that allows you to thumb your nose at church policy?



Harry, call it what you want, but this is a matter of religious freedom being possibly jeopardized by being forced into compliance.



There are all sorts of laws that people of all religions and beliefs

have to be in compliance of. Do you think we should do away with all of

them?

No, and I didn't imply it. Do you think that a person should be open to lawsuits and have their retirement jeopardized because they don't do the will of "the company?"