On 5/1/2013 9:17 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 1 May 2013 20:03:28 -0400, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On Wed, 01 May 2013 06:10:24 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


The study demonstrated that conservatives and liberals were equally
likely to buy either bulb, but conservatives were less likely to buy the
energy savings lightbulb if you told them it would help the environment.
*That* is the point here.

I understand that and I explained it. If you just say it helps the
environment without actually showing it saves money, people assume it
is more expensive.
There are also questions about just how much it "saves the
environment" when you start talking about mercury and the extra
manufacturing pollution. Fortunately for the US, that all happens in
China. (unless you were a light bulb factory worker here).
You still have the disposal problem and the issues with a broken bulb
in the home.
Maybe liberals simply blow all of that off because they are "saving
the planet". It says so right on the non-biodegradable bubble pack.

You can't just throw them in the trash. They are hazardous waste.

http://www6.montgomerycountymd.gov/a...ial_detail.asp
?categoryID=36

How many people are going to drive 15-20 miles to drop off a light
bulb?
99.9% of these are going to end up in the land fill.


100%...

On 5/1/2013 9:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:03:20 -0400, Hank©
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 9:05 AM, True North wrote:
We bought a pkg of 4 small chandelier type LED bulbs a couple months ago at Costco.
The wife likes running numerous floor type lamps and I balked at the energy use of the standard bulbs.
I believe they are about 4 watts but throw the light of a 60.
Anyway, now we're both happy...she gets her light and I save on our expensive electricity.

Lowes had them on sale last year for $10. I bought about 40 of them. my
savings for a year were more than $300 in Elec. cost.

I doubt I spend $200 a year on lighting total. That is 1.5 megawatt
hours here. (4.1 KWH a day) That is a lot of lights if you turn them
off when you are not using them.
The occupancy sensors pretty much insure the only rooms with lights
are on are the rooms we are in.
I like it because wherever I go, the lights are on.
We don't really light our house as brightly as most people anyway. We
use task lighting when we need it and otherwise it is fairly softly
lit.


The CFL's are bull****. I have to run two lamps in most rooms to get any
decent light...

On 5/1/2013 9:35 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 20:29:10 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:

On Wed, 01 May 2013 20:05:45 -0400, wrote:

This came about because the 2 wire devices do not work with LEDs and
CFLs. They work OK with incandescents.

===

For us laymen, can you explain why that is?

The switcher power supply in a CFL will store the minuscule current
the 2 wire line powered devices use and when the filter capacitor
reaches the point that the switcher generates a usable amount of
power, it flashes. This becomes a relaxation oscillator.
I have tried CFLs in a couple of my occupancy sensor locations and
they all flash. You can usually get by this by putting a small
incandescent in parallel with the CFL.
I have a 15' string of LED rope light on a SSR (triac) controlled
circuit and it never really turns off. You always see a dim glow
coming from it.
You sort of defeat the purpose of using a 13w CFL or LED if you have
to put a 15w light bulb in there to turn the switch off.


Your life is too complicated by this stuff.

On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:26:35 -0400, JustWaitAFrekinMinute
wrote:

The CFL's are bull****. I have to run two lamps in most rooms to get any
decent light...

====

You're doing something wrong. You can get CFLs with just as much
light as a 100 watt bulb only using a fraction of the power. They
are "instant on" also. We use 60 watt equivalents on the boat
intsead of 110 volt incadescents. They make a huge difference in
power draw when we are running on the inverter batteries.

On 5/1/2013 11:25 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:26:35 -0400, JustWaitAFrekinMinute
wrote:

The CFL's are bull****. I have to run two lamps in most rooms to get any
decent light...

====

You're doing something wrong. You can get CFLs with just as much
light as a 100 watt bulb only using a fraction of the power. They
are "instant on" also. We use 60 watt equivalents on the boat
intsead of 110 volt incadescents. They make a huge difference in
power draw when we are running on the inverter batteries.


I sit at a reading desk.. You can tell me all you want that 23 watt CFL
puts out as much light or lumens @.. etc.. but I know what I can see
with, and what I can't...

On 5/1/2013 9:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:03:20 -0400, Hank©
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 9:05 AM, True North wrote:
We bought a pkg of 4 small chandelier type LED bulbs a couple months ago at Costco.
The wife likes running numerous floor type lamps and I balked at the energy use of the standard bulbs.
I believe they are about 4 watts but throw the light of a 60.
Anyway, now we're both happy...she gets her light and I save on our expensive electricity.

Lowes had them on sale last year for $10. I bought about 40 of them. my
savings for a year were more than $300 in Elec. cost.

I doubt I spend $200 a year on lighting total. That is 1.5 megawatt
hours here. (4.1 KWH a day) That is a lot of lights if you turn them
off when you are not using them.
The occupancy sensors pretty much insure the only rooms with lights
are on are the rooms we are in.
I like it because wherever I go, the lights are on.
We don't really light our house as brightly as most people anyway. We
use task lighting when we need it and otherwise it is fairly softly
lit.

That's hard to measure. I'm going on consistent monthly cost
differences compared to prior years.

On 5/1/2013 10:08 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:20:10 -0400, Hank©
wrote:

On 5/1/2013 8:29 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 20:05:45 -0400, wrote:

This came about because the 2 wire devices do not work with LEDs and
CFLs. They work OK with incandescents.

===

For us laymen, can you explain why that is?


I'd like to know too. I have almost 40 LEDs working with 2 wires. There
are of course three wires in the fixture but one of them is ground and
not part of the circuit.

The 3 wires are at the switch and it is required if you use electronic
switching and don't power the circuit through the load.
That would be typical of any occupancy sensor or timer that is a drop
in replacement for a snap switch.
In some of my applications I use the regular motion detector heads you
use outside and they have a relay for the switch so they will run
anything but you need a neutral for them.


I'll have to take your word for it. I wasn't aware that a ground is used
to complete a live circuit. Sounds hokey to me but I won't argue with you.

On 5/1/2013 11:25 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:26:35 -0400, JustWaitAFrekinMinute
wrote:

The CFL's are bull****. I have to run two lamps in most rooms to get any
decent light...

====

You're doing something wrong. You can get CFLs with just as much
light as a 100 watt bulb only using a fraction of the power. They
are "instant on" also. We use 60 watt equivalents on the boat
intsead of 110 volt incadescents. They make a huge difference in
power draw when we are running on the inverter batteries.


LEDs use half the power of CFLs They last much longer too. You can get
them to replace most 12V lamps. Do your CFLs have to warm up to achieve
maximum brightness?

In article ,
says...


"2 wire" snap switches or electronic switching?


Simple snap switches - that are probably +95% of all residential
switches.


Baloney. A code for lighting controls requiring 3-wire would fix that.
No need to make every switch 3-wire.

That is exactly what they did.

Nope. What they did is require a neutral where it's not needed in the
vast majority of cases.

l.

There are a lot of states that cave in to builders and write code
exceptions.


Good for them in this case. Electricians generally think it's a stupid
code from what I've read. Steps over the "design" line.

Most electricians say the same thing about AFCIs, some say it about
GFCIs and a few even say the required small appliance circuits in the
kitchen should be a design issue.
I agree the code has become a vehicle for companies to sell hardware
but it is sold as safety.
It is just that politically correct "if it just saves one life" thing
you lefties seem to embrace everywhere else.

Right. I don't agree with a "greenie" code - so I'm a "lefty."
Yup, you sure enough drank the kool-ade.

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 01 May 2013 22:44:14 -0400, Hank©
wrote:


Your life is too complicated by this stuff.

Once you get a good array of motion and occupancy sensors in place,
you start wondering why you didn't do it sooner.
This actually started over a quarter century ago when I saw my wife
and daughter using the open refrigerator as a night light.

You gotta be kidding. Even 100 year-old houses are wired with wall
switches by the door. Have you ever heard of flashlights and nite-
lites?

That was my first indoor motion detector, turning on a small light
that lit up the kitchen, dining room and hallway. Now everywhere you
go around he house, inside or out, the light follows you.
The only places that don't have detectors are the bedrooms.
Inside it is really just 5 strategically located detectors and some
low level lighting.

I bet my dogs would be shocked as they wander around the house.
Wonder what all that on/off does for bulb longevity. We have one small
CFL in the range hood that provides almost whole house night light.
Illuminates enough to avoid tripping everywhere, including the bedrooms
if the door is open. My basement isn't wired up for lighting, so I just
keep a 3 dollar LED flashlight on a shelf at the foot of the stairs to
get to the one wall switch 20 feet away in the dark. Haven't even
changed the batteries in about 4 years.
Different strokes.