On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:03:05 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"J Herring" wrote in message
.. .

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 09:16:03 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"J Herring" wrote in message
. ..

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:19:36 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

-------------------------------------------------

Are you saying that right also extends to convicted felons, people
with serious mental health issues, alcoholics and drug addicts?


The Constitution does not exclude them.

But then again, a convicted felon forfeited some of his rights. Those
with serious mental health
issues could easily be considered a danger to themselves and/or
society. Alcoholics and drug
addicts? How would that he controlled. I doubt if AA or NA are going
to provide lists of members.
And besides, members don't 'sign up' or register to be a member.

--------------------------------------

I don't know about other states but the gun permit application in MA
has specific questions regarding drug addiction and/or a history of
"habitual drunkenness" or treatment for alcohol abuse. There's a
reason for that. I believe answering in the affirmative will
disqualify the applicant for a permit. They may qualify following a
treatment program and a doctor's statement that the person has
successfully been drug or alcohol free for a period of 5 years.
Both
addictions are considered to be mental health issues.

Having had some up close and personal experience in the past year
with
an alcoholic who we were finally able to get into a program for
recovery, I can completely support that restriction. Drug and
alcohol addiction can totally change a person into someone you would
never recognize.


Seems silly. A recovering alcoholic, one who's not had a drink for
over five years, let's say, would
need a doctor to attest to that? How the hell would a doctor know? The
Form 4473 has a similar
question about addiction to marijuana, narcotics, etc. It would be
very easy for a slightly less
than honest person to simply say 'no'. Unless there were some record
or conviction, he 'd get away
with it.

I've gone through the same experience you have with an alcoholic. The
individual, a brother, has
been sober for several years now. I wouldn't hesitate to let him buy a
firearm. He's also a retired
cop.

--------------------------------------------------------

Silly?

When you think your brother was mentally responsible enough to own
firearms? A month or two into his recovery? A year?

He owned several firearms the whole time, and still does.

I guess it depends on the circumstances, but it's the reason the
question is asked on the questionnaires. Sure, if you lie you might
get away with it until it catches up with you. That's a crime also.

I don't have a problem with the questionnaire. I answered all the questions. How would being a
*sober* alcoholic or narcotics user catch up with you?

The experience we had was one of the most difficult times I've had in
my life. The person was hell bent on self-destruction due to many
issues and pressures and his personality completely changed, often
ugly. It finally started to take a turn for the better when I
happened to visit to check up on him and found him in an alcohol
induced coma. He was going into respiratory failure and I had to
shake and slap him around until the paramedics arrived to keep him
breathing. His blood alcohol level was measured at the hospital at
450 (.45 in more common terminology). .08 is the level normally
considered to be "drunk". Anything over .35 (or 350) is considered
a lethal dose.


Every alcoholic has to hit his/her bottom. Apparently that incident was his bottom, if he became
sober afterwards. I have two brothers who are alcoholics. One is sober now and has been for several
years. I'd quit visiting him (in NC) because I couldn't stand to be around him. Told his wife to
call if she ever needed anything. The other one is in Seattle. We've gone up and down many times. He
won't consider AA because they say the 'Our Father'. Yes, he's the atheist. There is no reason an
atheist can't join AA, and there is no requirement to participate in the prayer. Hell, there's no
requirement to remain in attendance during the prayer. It's simply an excuse to do nothing about his
problem. He's not hit his bottom yet, and we aren't speaking now. Hopefully he'll call for help
before hitting a bottom that hurts or kills him.

You can only do so much.


Salmonbait

--
'Name-calling' - the liberals' last stand.

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:48:08 -0400, J Herring wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:03:05 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"J Herring" wrote in message
. ..

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 09:16:03 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:



"J Herring" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:19:36 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

-------------------------------------------------

Are you saying that right also extends to convicted felons, people
with serious mental health issues, alcoholics and drug addicts?


The Constitution does not exclude them.

But then again, a convicted felon forfeited some of his rights. Those
with serious mental health
issues could easily be considered a danger to themselves and/or
society. Alcoholics and drug
addicts? How would that he controlled. I doubt if AA or NA are going
to provide lists of members.
And besides, members don't 'sign up' or register to be a member.

--------------------------------------

I don't know about other states but the gun permit application in MA
has specific questions regarding drug addiction and/or a history of
"habitual drunkenness" or treatment for alcohol abuse. There's a
reason for that. I believe answering in the affirmative will
disqualify the applicant for a permit. They may qualify following a
treatment program and a doctor's statement that the person has
successfully been drug or alcohol free for a period of 5 years.
Both
addictions are considered to be mental health issues.

Having had some up close and personal experience in the past year
with
an alcoholic who we were finally able to get into a program for
recovery, I can completely support that restriction. Drug and
alcohol addiction can totally change a person into someone you would
never recognize.


Seems silly. A recovering alcoholic, one who's not had a drink for
over five years, let's say, would
need a doctor to attest to that? How the hell would a doctor know? The
Form 4473 has a similar
question about addiction to marijuana, narcotics, etc. It would be
very easy for a slightly less
than honest person to simply say 'no'. Unless there were some record
or conviction, he 'd get away
with it.

I've gone through the same experience you have with an alcoholic. The
individual, a brother, has
been sober for several years now. I wouldn't hesitate to let him buy a
firearm. He's also a retired
cop.

--------------------------------------------------------

Silly?

When you think your brother was mentally responsible enough to own
firearms? A month or two into his recovery? A year?

He owned several firearms the whole time, and still does.

I guess it depends on the circumstances, but it's the reason the
question is asked on the questionnaires. Sure, if you lie you might
get away with it until it catches up with you. That's a crime also.

I don't have a problem with the questionnaire. I answered all the questions. How would being a
*sober* alcoholic or narcotics user catch up with you?

The experience we had was one of the most difficult times I've had in
my life. The person was hell bent on self-destruction due to many
issues and pressures and his personality completely changed, often
ugly. It finally started to take a turn for the better when I
happened to visit to check up on him and found him in an alcohol
induced coma. He was going into respiratory failure and I had to
shake and slap him around until the paramedics arrived to keep him
breathing. His blood alcohol level was measured at the hospital at
450 (.45 in more common terminology). .08 is the level normally
considered to be "drunk". Anything over .35 (or 350) is considered
a lethal dose.


Every alcoholic has to hit his/her bottom. Apparently that incident was his bottom, if he became
sober afterwards. I have two brothers who are alcoholics. One is sober now and has been for several
years. I'd quit visiting him (in NC) because I couldn't stand to be around him. Told his wife to
call if she ever needed anything. The other one is in Seattle. We've gone up and down many times. He
won't consider AA because they say the 'Our Father'. Yes, he's the atheist. There is no reason an
atheist can't join AA, and there is no requirement to participate in the prayer. Hell, there's no
requirement to remain in attendance during the prayer. It's simply an excuse to do nothing about his
problem. He's not hit his bottom yet, and we aren't speaking now. Hopefully he'll call for help
before hitting a bottom that hurts or kills him.

You can only do so much.


Salmonbait

Forgot to mention, the one in NC is a changed person, loads of fun to be around and a damn good
golfer.


Salmonbait

--
'Name-calling' - the liberals' last stand.