I wish to thank everyone for this excellent thread. I should have mentioned
that all of my sailing will be on small lakes and ponds (that's all we have
in Vermont except for that other "Great Lake"). I could probably even get
by with a good sized electric except for the one time when I might get
caught in a good blow 4 miles from the boat ramp. I guess my first choice
is a Honda because I used to sell them and know the quality. The 4 stroke
is a must for me just because of the noise and smoke, not to mention
pollution of the 2 strokes.
Thanks again everyone. Nice to have a group where we can get good honest
answers without being beat over the head by the "experts".
Pleasant sailing all.
Bruce
"Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message
...
Hi again Bruce,
Just some general observations on the replies to this posting. People
seem
concerned about low cost alternatives, which is fine if you are doing
day sailing
or out on small lakes. However, if you plan to be on any large lakes or
oceans for
any extended cruising, don't cut corners on a good engine. Don't forget
that you
life may depend on it, and that's worth a lot of money. It's true
sailboats have
more options than power boats, but it helps to have a strong dependable
engine
to get you out of the tougher situations. I would recommend a long
shaft, and
in addition, I would recommend a more flexible motor mount that would
allow you
to raise and lower the engine while on the water. If your boat is light
weight
and you plan to do day sailing on small lakes, the 5 hp would certainly
push
your boat fine. Otherwise, I would be looking in the 7 to 10 hp range,
depending
on the type of engine (you could get by with 7 in a four stroke). Also,
go for
the higher gear ratio, if you can find it.

Sherwin

Bruce wrote:

I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about
how
big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP
would
be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be
appreciated.
Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount
currently
on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop.

Regards,
Bruce

Hi Chris,
Like I said earlier, if you don't do any open ocean sailing like the
Bahamas, you can get away with less power. Also, my 22 footer weighs
4000 lbs. unloaded, probably closer to 5000 lbs. with full water and
fuel
tanks, plus other supplies. I have had trouble with engines around 6
h.p., like trying to point my boat upstream in the Mississippi River and
going backwards, at full throttle, or being caught in open waters in a
real blow. When a squall hits, I prefer to take down all sails and
motor with bare poles. I usually don't have time to put up any storm
sails when these squalls come up quickly. If you ever found yourself on
a rocky lee
shore in a big blow, you would appreciate a larger engine to get you
off.
The 6 hp engine might work on a light trailerable boat with a hull that
has less than normal wind resistance, but I would not take such a boat
out
in the ocean anyways.

Sherwin

Chris Edmonson wrote:

Sherwin;

Generally I have not gone to the edge of the rpm range to move the boat in
wind or current. However, I have to add that I sail when at all possible so
do not rely on the motor as much as some might. My most usual time to turn
the motor on is when I leave the dock until I get out just far enough not to
pose a danger to other traffic. From an anchorage I will set the sail
instead of motor off... to me motors are just a noisy niusance. There isn't
much current close in the harbor or near the coves I use most so it's not an
issue. At those times when it is I still prefer to sail out.

Best;
Chris

"Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message
...
Chris,

You mention that you could always get your boat up to hull speed
before
you hit maximum throttle rpm's. Now, was that in calm waters or going
downwind. I think you will find trying to make headway into a strong
wind and sea puts more demand on the engine. It's for those unusual
conditions that I would be willing to put up the extra cash to get the
reserve power. My only regret is that they have not come up with a
four stroke engine with a reasonable weight. I could heist my 65 pound
Chrysler Sailor over the transom into the boat, at sea. I cannot do
that
with my 4 stroke 99 pound Yamaha. I would have gotten a 2 stroke but I
am tired of mixing the oil with the gas, the loud noises from the
engine,
plus the worry that the government is going to put some kind of
restrictions on 2 stroke engines.
There are places to economize in boating, but for anyone doing
serious cruising (not day sailing), the added expense of a strong engine
is worth it. As I mentioned before, the higher gear ratio gives you
more leeway to increase your thrust, beyond what changing the propellor
can do.
It's true that high gear ratio engines are getting harder to find,
but not impossible.
Two years ago, while on a vacation to the Florida Keys, I found that my
Chrysler had
frozen up in storage beyond repair. I had to hustle to get a Yamaha
dealer to truck
one down from Miami since there were none available locally. I'm sure
that if people
are not pressed for time like me, they can order any engine they want.
If people were
more knowlegable about sailboat engines, they would not get stuck with
these motor boat
engines, and wouldn't have to change props as an afterthought.

Sherwin

Chris Edmonson wrote:

Sherwin;

True enough that gear ratio is of import but I think in the dollar range
I
have seen people willing to spend a $150 propeller change will get more
for
the expense than the $700 to $1500 sometimes charged for gear change.
The
retail marine motor business is spotty at best. Often someone looking
for a
particular motor will find that particular motor difficult to obtain. I
have even had people look into changing a short shaft motor into a long
shaft motor along with a gear change... just not cost effective. I
guess I
was thinking more of someone wanting to correct a situation with an
existing
motor than getting a new one.

Motors are set up for the different kinds of jobs they do. A work boat
will
typically have the "high thrust" version whereas a sport fishing boat
often
goes for speed / troll trade-offs. A sailboat that cannot plane does
not
need a high pitch prop (equates to higher end speed in a planing hull).

Assuming that their gear ratio will allow them to get enough thrust
with
more conventional pitch props.

The
rule of thumb is that for every inch of pitch change you will increase
or
decrease your max rpm's by 150 tp 200 rpm (a fact that is written on the
Mercury propeller box). For fuel economy you might choose a lower pitch
that will make power at a lower rpm... in a way this IS a gear change.
On
my own sailboats I have gotten hull speed long before I ever get to max
thrust of the motor. It has allowed a smaller motor to be used and
saved on
the expense and wieght of the larger motor and the fuel savings on a
long
use of the motor. This last is relatively unimportant because in a
season's
use I can count the tanks used on one hand!

Because the high thrust option is needed to extend even further the
range of
useful power generated by the engine it is reasonable to make a motor
with a
MUCH higher gear ratio... so in terms of designing a workboat or
sailboat
motor it is understandable that the gear ratios are offered. It is just
that they are not readily available everywhere. There are charts at
almost
all marine motor dealers that match pitch to a variety of motors so
there
isn't really much experimenting to do to get the power you are seeking.
Overall I have to agree with pretty much everything you say BUT in terms
of
expense and availability I would look at my motor with the idea that
unless
I were replacing the whole thing I would opt for a pitch change before I
would get hung up on getting a motor that may not be obtainable at the
moment. Your points are very well taken though and if you can find the
gear
ratio option it is an easy cure for the thrust question.

There are no easy cures. Changing the pitch to overcome a design
deficiency
is asking for trouble down the line.


Best;
Chris

"Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message
...
Hi Chris,
Your point about the 4-strokes developing power (or torque) at
lower
rpm's
than 2-strokes is correct, but I'm not sure that leaves the gear
ratio's
out
of the picture entirely. First of all, why would Yamaha and Mercury
go
to higher
gear ratio's on their 'high thrust' engines, if it would be simpler to
just change
the propellor pitch to achieve the same result? Secondly, I would be
a
little
nervous about experimenting with a propellor's pitch to match it
optimally to
the engine. The bottom line is will a 4-stroke engine with a low gear
ratio
and a compensating pitch propellor run as well as a 4-stroke with a
higher
gear ratio engine with it's appropriate propellor (I don't think so).
Actually,
both the higher gear ratio and the propellor can each contribute to
the
higher
thrust. However, given a choice, I would go with the higher gear
ratio
which
would allow me to get even more thrust by decreasing the propellor
pitch. With
the lower gear ratio engines, I can only lower the pitch of the
propellor which
has obvious limits as to how much this can be done.

Sherwin Dubren

Chris Edmonson wrote:

All good points being made here. If the wieght maximum you have in
mind
is
clear to you then go with a smaller four stroke. I have found it
difficult
to move much more than fifty or sixty pounds of bulky motor around
so
would
tend to go with a smaller motor than a lot of folks might choose.
The
other
thing is that the four strokes make power at a lower RPM so may be
best
on
fuel economy over the long run. The gear ratio is perhaps not as
large
an
issue as it was when almost all of the motors were two strokes that
needed
the higher RPM's to get you going. The propeller's pitch can give
you
some
of the pushing power that the old gear ratio change would give. If
you
don't have enough umph move down a couple of inches in pitch and
gain
power
earlier in the curve. The four strokes definitely handle this
change
very
well.

Best;
Chris

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure
about
how
big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5
HP
would
be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be
appreciated.
Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount
currently
on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the
prop.

Regards,
Bruce

Hi Bruce,
I almost bought a Honda 4 stroke 9.9 for my boat. Probably a very
reliable engine, but I felt the gear ratio was too low for a sailboat.
As you have read in the previous responses, people have suggested over-
coming this deficiency by replacing the propellor with a lower pitch.
I don't think this is a good approach. The Hondas are designed to push
planing motorboats, for which they do an excellent job.

Sherwin

Bruce wrote:

I wish to thank everyone for this excellent thread. I should have mentioned
that all of my sailing will be on small lakes and ponds (that's all we have
in Vermont except for that other "Great Lake"). I could probably even get
by with a good sized electric except for the one time when I might get
caught in a good blow 4 miles from the boat ramp. I guess my first choice
is a Honda because I used to sell them and know the quality. The 4 stroke
is a must for me just because of the noise and smoke, not to mention
pollution of the 2 strokes.
Thanks again everyone. Nice to have a group where we can get good honest
answers without being beat over the head by the "experts".
Pleasant sailing all.
Bruce
"Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message
...
Hi again Bruce,
Just some general observations on the replies to this posting. People
seem
concerned about low cost alternatives, which is fine if you are doing
day sailing
or out on small lakes. However, if you plan to be on any large lakes or
oceans for
any extended cruising, don't cut corners on a good engine. Don't forget
that you
life may depend on it, and that's worth a lot of money. It's true
sailboats have
more options than power boats, but it helps to have a strong dependable
engine
to get you out of the tougher situations. I would recommend a long
shaft, and
in addition, I would recommend a more flexible motor mount that would
allow you
to raise and lower the engine while on the water. If your boat is light
weight
and you plan to do day sailing on small lakes, the 5 hp would certainly
push
your boat fine. Otherwise, I would be looking in the 7 to 10 hp range,
depending
on the type of engine (you could get by with 7 in a four stroke). Also,
go for
the higher gear ratio, if you can find it.

Sherwin

Bruce wrote:

I need to buy an outboard for my San Juan 21 and not quite sure about
how
big to go. I would like a 4 stroke and I am thinking that about 5 HP
would
be a good size. Any comments about the different brands would be
appreciated.
Also, do I really need a "long shaft" motor. With the motor mount
currently
on the boat, it seems to me that any motor would easily bury the prop.

Regards,
Bruce

"John R Weiss" wrote in message

Be careful when you do that! You may end up immersing the head and
"drowning"
the engine when the transom goes down!


The transom is adjustable.

Granted, an outboard on the transom of a sailboat is a compromise at best.

Exactly, I wouldn't put myself in a situation where I "depended" on the
outboard... Except for maybe being becalmed.

so you don't end up with
a dead engine when you need it most

That's why I bought a new one.

"Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message
...
Hi Ferg,

I feel badly being the 'critic' here on some of these replies, but
they
really go against my experiences with sailboat engines at sea.


No problem, but allow me to retort.


If the San Juan 21 is similar to my boat, 5hp is plenty.

That depends on the weight of his boat.

Like I said, I'm not familiar with Bruce's San Juan 21.


I thought running at lower throttle uses less gas.

Of course, but you still have more juice getting sucked through the carb
with a larger engine. My 5hp uses less gas than my 10hp did doing the same
job. I speak from my humble experience.


You probably had the engine height set too high for the longshaft.

Maybe it was just the inate problem of using an outboard on a small
sailboat. Please don't assume that I'm an idiot.

The outboard situation on my Catalina 22 is not unlike most trailer-sailors.
The boat itself is lightweight and can get bouncy in a moderate chop. But
if there's chop or short waves, then there is likely wind as well, and wind
is the desired source for propulsion anyhow. Even if it takes longer to
tack upwind to get home, it's probably SAFER to do what the boat was
designed to do than tinker and struggle with a cavitating outboard. You're
much more likely to pay attention to your surroundings if you focus on your
telltales on a tight reach, instead of adjusting the outboard's throttle
during each wave crest.

And frankly, my Catalina 22 sails better now that I got rid of that old,
beastly, awkward twin-cylinder machine on it's stern.

I consider all small outboards problematic and subject to unforeseen
problems... No matter how much you spend on one. It's a luxury on my larger
boat's dingy, but I always carry oars.

If you really want a small trailer-sailor that works well with its outboard,
maybe you should have bought one of these:

http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/sa...fications.html

Ferg wrote:

"Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message
...
Hi Ferg,

I feel badly being the 'critic' here on some of these replies, but
they
really go against my experiences with sailboat engines at sea.

No problem, but allow me to retort.

If the San Juan 21 is similar to my boat, 5hp is plenty.

That depends on the weight of his boat.

Like I said, I'm not familiar with Bruce's San Juan 21.


I thought running at lower throttle uses less gas.

Of course, but you still have more juice getting sucked through the carb
with a larger engine. My 5hp uses less gas than my 10hp did doing the same
job. I speak from my humble experience.


You probably had the engine height set too high for the longshaft.

Maybe it was just the inate problem of using an outboard on a small
sailboat. Please don't assume that I'm an idiot.

There are no innate problems with outboards. I have been using them
for
over 30 years and although not perfect, they do the job.

The outboard situation on my Catalina 22 is not unlike most trailer-sailors.
The boat itself is lightweight and can get bouncy in a moderate chop. But
if there's chop or short waves, then there is likely wind as well, and wind
is the desired source for propulsion anyhow.

Not when it's blowing directly in your face.


Even if it takes longer to
tack upwind to get home, it's probably SAFER to do what the boat was
designed to do than tinker and struggle with a cavitating outboard.

I have only experienced cavitation with following seas, and even then
it was not a big problem.

You're
much more likely to pay attention to your surroundings if you focus on your
telltales on a tight reach, instead of adjusting the outboard's throttle
during each wave crest.

I don't know what kind of setup you have with your engine, but I have
never
had that problem. One thing that helps, is to be motor sailing with
reduced
sails up. It keeps the boat on an even keel, so unless you are still
forced
to tack, you can set your engine height and leave it there.


You are assuming that you have all the time in the world to tack. If
you are out
at sea and you have only so many hours of daylight, you may want to
get in before
dark, or before the weather deteriorates even more.

And frankly, my Catalina 22 sails better now that I got rid of that old,
beastly, awkward twin-cylinder machine on it's stern.

It's nice to be a purist, but I'm not out to prove anything. I
usually motor sail
in rough conditions into the wind. The sails take some load off the
engine and help
to stabilize the boat. I find that I'm not fiddling with the
throttle, and only in
rare cases do I have to adjust the engine height (with a long shaft
those instances are
extremely rare). Again, all this depends on where you are sailing and
what kind of
boat you are in. For trailerable boats on small lakes, the rules are
quite different
from a fixed keel boat on the ocean or large lake. I also learned to
sail on a Rhodes
19 with no engine, but I wouldn't take that boat to the Bahamas. My
Westerly 22 foot
boat is very heavy and made to take lots of punishment. The rules for
it are obviously
different than for your vessel.

I consider all small outboards problematic and subject to unforeseen
problems... No matter how much you spend on one.

A well maintained outboard engine should give minimal problems. Sails
are not
always perfect either, although I agree with you that they are the
sailor's last
recourse, something power boats cannot enjoy.

It's a luxury on my larger
boat's dingy, but I always carry oars.

If you really want a small trailer-sailor that works well with its outboard,
maybe you should have bought one of these:

I'm not the trailer-sailor type. They are not very comfortable or
secure in
big waves and strong winds, and they usually cannot point very close
to the wind.



http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/sa...fications.html

"Sherwin Dubren" wrote in message
...
For trailerable boats on small lakes, the rules are
quite different
from a fixed keel boat on the ocean or large lake. I also learned to
sail on a Rhodes
19 with no engine, but I wouldn't take that boat to the Bahamas. My
Westerly 22 foot
boat is very heavy and made to take lots of punishment. The rules for
it are obviously
different than for your vessel.

Your Westerly 22 is a very nice boat, and much different from my Catalina
22. I think you should feel safe in the Bahamas in your Westerly, but I
wouldn't take my C across the gulf stream. The advice I offered was meant
for a light trailerable boat such as Bruce's.

I was raised in a sailing family that spent a few summers cruising from
Tampa Bay to the Bahamas in a Tartan 27. My aging parents have moved up to
a trawler, Which they now live on for a 3rd of the year. It's taken 30
years for my father to leave the well-maintained Tartan in my possession.
The difference between my two boats is quite extreme, from standing room, to
private head, and of course inboard vs outboard.

Happy sailing,

John.