"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...


That $2.54 price at the bottom of the short list in the URL was a
"special price" all new customers get when they switch from their old
propane provider to the company we're now using...25 cents off per
gallon on the first tank full-up. Our new provider is locally owned
and
seems a hell of a lot more customer-service oriented than the provider
we had for more than nine years. That company was owned by an out of
state corporation.

-------------------------------------

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them. If you want to
change suppliers, you have to get new tanks. Not a huge deal but the
supplier also typically requires a contract that you will buy only
from them for some number of years.

We don't really use enough propane to be overly concerned with the ups
and downs of the price. We heat with oil. That's a different story.
We have one "regular" 275 gallon oil tank and two additional 330
gallon tanks that our oil company installed in our basement when we
first bought this house. When they come to fill them up Mrs.E gets
a little nervous. I've tried to explain to her that we are going to
use it anyway, so don't worry about it.

It's a big house but the heating cost is surprisingly not all that
bad. It's all 2x6 construction on the outside walls and is very
well insulated. We also have something like 9 individual heating
zones, so the areas of the house that aren't used can be kept at lower
temps.

In article ,
says...

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...


That $2.54 price at the bottom of the short list in the URL was a
"special price" all new customers get when they switch from their old
propane provider to the company we're now using...25 cents off per
gallon on the first tank full-up. Our new provider is locally owned
and
seems a hell of a lot more customer-service oriented than the provider
we had for more than nine years. That company was owned by an out of
state corporation.

-------------------------------------

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them. If you want to
change suppliers, you have to get new tanks. Not a huge deal but the
supplier also typically requires a contract that you will buy only
from them for some number of years.

We don't really use enough propane to be overly concerned with the ups
and downs of the price. We heat with oil. That's a different story.
We have one "regular" 275 gallon oil tank and two additional 330
gallon tanks that our oil company installed in our basement when we
first bought this house. When they come to fill them up Mrs.E gets
a little nervous. I've tried to explain to her that we are going to
use it anyway, so don't worry about it.

It's a big house but the heating cost is surprisingly not all that
bad. It's all 2x6 construction on the outside walls and is very
well insulated. We also have something like 9 individual heating
zones, so the areas of the house that aren't used can be kept at lower
temps.

Here we have natural gas, and it's an open market so you can shop. I
lock in a rate for a year, you get a better price that way. I shop for
the best rate, then call whomever I'm with and say company X is giving
gas to me for Y amount per therm, and they'll usually at least match it
or beat it, if not, I switch.

On 2/21/13 3:36 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...


That $2.54 price at the bottom of the short list in the URL was a
"special price" all new customers get when they switch from their old
propane provider to the company we're now using...25 cents off per
gallon on the first tank full-up. Our new provider is locally owned and
seems a hell of a lot more customer-service oriented than the provider
we had for more than nine years. That company was owned by an out of
state corporation.

-------------------------------------

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them. If you want to change
suppliers, you have to get new tanks. Not a huge deal but the supplier
also typically requires a contract that you will buy only from them for
some number of years.


If you own your own tank here, you can shop for propane, but the
supplier we are now using gave us a good deal on the plumbing necessary
for our back up generator, plus a discount on the first fill, and its
prices are competitive. If I wanted, I could change suppliers, but I
have no reason to do so.



--
I'm a *Liberal* because I knew the militant christian fundamentalist
racist militaristic xenophobic corporate oligarchy wasn't going to work
for me.

F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 2/21/13 3:36 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...


That $2.54 price at the bottom of the short list in the URL was a
"special price" all new customers get when they switch from their old
propane provider to the company we're now using...25 cents off per
gallon on the first tank full-up. Our new provider is locally owned and
seems a hell of a lot more customer-service oriented than the provider
we had for more than nine years. That company was owned by an out of
state corporation.

-------------------------------------

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them. If you want to change
suppliers, you have to get new tanks. Not a huge deal but the supplier
also typically requires a contract that you will buy only from them for
some number of years.


If you own your own tank here, you can shop for propane, but the
supplier we are now using gave us a good deal on the plumbing
necessary for our back up generator, plus a discount on the first
fill, and its prices are competitive. If I wanted, I could change
suppliers, but I have no reason to do so.



Are you going to pay him? If not, the price is irrelevant. Your unpaid
taxes are relevant and will catch up to you.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.

On 2/21/2013 8:10 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.


They passed the laws based on the pretense that they don't want to put
gas into unknown equipment. It's inaccurate to say you can't shop
around, you can but to switch you have to get the new folks to bring in
their own tanks and usually that either costs, or means a contract...

In article ,
says...

On 2/21/2013 8:10 PM, Wayne B wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.


They passed the laws based on the pretense that they don't want to put
gas into unknown equipment. It's inaccurate to say you can't shop
around, you can but to switch you have to get the new folks to bring in
their own tanks and usually that either costs, or means a contract...

But YOU said that Harry was lying about his propane cost!!!!

"Wayne B" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only
the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.

==========================

I really don't know if it's a state law or just a policy of the
propane suppliers. I am sure the concern is liability.

To the best of my knowledge the same is (or was) true in Florida. We
had a propane powered spa heater in one of the houses down there and
when I called a supplier to fill it he told me he couldn't unless he
installed a tank provided by him. I've never investigated buying our
own tanks as Harry mentioned but again, we really don't use enough
propane up here to make it an issue.

I had a friend who lived on Long Island who installed a propane heater
for his pool and then regretted it as he watched his tank being filled
weekly.
When we put our pool in here in MA, I went for an electric heater.
It's big (150,000 BTU heat pump) but we only use it to initially get
the water temp up in the spring and then later in the fall to extend
the pool use a bit. Most of the time it is off.

When they were putting the pool in, the electrical contractor was
trying to sell us a whole house, propane powered generator. He said
we could tie it into the 100 gallon tank we have for the garage
heater. He ran all the wiring for it but, after thinking about it,
I elected to hold off on it. That was 7 years ago. The number of
times we have been without power for any extended period of time in
the last 7 years just doesn't justify the cost of a huge generator
like that, plus it would also go through propane fast.

The longest period we've gone without power was for 3 days and that
was two weeks ago during the "blizzard". Even if we had the big
generator, we would not have been able to get more propane for it if
it ran low because nobody could drive anywhere due to the fallen trees
and power lines. We got by fine using the little Honda EU2000i. I
ran power to a refrigerator, a couple of lights and to the furnace.
The little generator worked great and It used a total of about 6
gallons of gasoline over the 3 day period. The furnace, circulating
pump and a couple of booster fans only draws 5.6 amps according to my
clamp-on ammeter. A refrigerator only draws 2 amps or less in normal
operation (compressor only). The little Honda maxes out at about
13.4 amps (continuous duty and a peak of 16.7 amps for starting
currents, etc.) so it had no problem running a refrigerator and a
couple of those new type lights. The only time it was really loaded
was when the refrigerator went into a defrost cycle when the refrig
draws about 6 amps, but that only happens once a day. If I noticed
it, I just unplugged the furnace for that period of time. Most of the
time it ran at the low RPM (Eco mode) level. It would run for 9
hours on a fill-up of a gallon of gas.

I also just found out that you can purchase a special fuel cap for it
that allows you to connect it to an auxiliary fuel tank (looks like a
fuel tank for a small outboard motor). That would give you a six
gallon capacity and it could run continuously for days.

On 2/21/13 9:38 PM, Eisboch wrote:


"Wayne B" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:36:15 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That's the only problem with propane. You really can't shop for
competitive pricing ... at least not in my state .... because only the
supplier who installed the tanks can fill them.

===

Is that state law? Sounds like restraint of trade to me. Someone
should challenge it in court.

==========================

I really don't know if it's a state law or just a policy of the propane
suppliers. I am sure the concern is liability.

To the best of my knowledge the same is (or was) true in Florida. We
had a propane powered spa heater in one of the houses down there and
when I called a supplier to fill it he told me he couldn't unless he
installed a tank provided by him. I've never investigated buying our
own tanks as Harry mentioned but again, we really don't use enough
propane up here to make it an issue.

I had a friend who lived on Long Island who installed a propane heater
for his pool and then regretted it as he watched his tank being filled
weekly.
When we put our pool in here in MA, I went for an electric heater. It's
big (150,000 BTU heat pump) but we only use it to initially get the
water temp up in the spring and then later in the fall to extend the
pool use a bit. Most of the time it is off.

When they were putting the pool in, the electrical contractor was trying
to sell us a whole house, propane powered generator. He said we could
tie it into the 100 gallon tank we have for the garage heater. He ran
all the wiring for it but, after thinking about it, I elected to hold
off on it. That was 7 years ago. The number of times we have been
without power for any extended period of time in the last 7 years just
doesn't justify the cost of a huge generator like that, plus it would
also go through propane fast.

The longest period we've gone without power was for 3 days and that was
two weeks ago during the "blizzard". Even if we had the big generator,
we would not have been able to get more propane for it if it ran low
because nobody could drive anywhere due to the fallen trees and power
lines. We got by fine using the little Honda EU2000i. I ran power
to a refrigerator, a couple of lights and to the furnace. The little
generator worked great and It used a total of about 6 gallons of
gasoline over the 3 day period. The furnace, circulating pump and a
couple of booster fans only draws 5.6 amps according to my clamp-on
ammeter. A refrigerator only draws 2 amps or less in normal operation
(compressor only). The little Honda maxes out at about 13.4 amps
(continuous duty and a peak of 16.7 amps for starting currents, etc.)
so it had no problem running a refrigerator and a couple of those new
type lights. The only time it was really loaded was when the
refrigerator went into a defrost cycle when the refrig draws about 6
amps, but that only happens once a day. If I noticed it, I just
unplugged the furnace for that period of time. Most of the time it ran
at the low RPM (Eco mode) level. It would run for 9 hours on a
fill-up of a gallon of gas.

I also just found out that you can purchase a special fuel cap for it
that allows you to connect it to an auxiliary fuel tank (looks like a
fuel tank for a small outboard motor). That would give you a six
gallon capacity and it could run continuously for days.


We're still "anticipating" the first serious power outage down here
since the installation of our backup generator. We've had two short-term
outages of a couple of minutes each, and the generator operated
nominally each time.

When we switched from one propane dealer to another, the new dealer sent
his plumber out to check the valves and look over what little of the
tank is out of the ground. Apparently, all was ok.

Unfortunately, "life as we know it" ceases with a power outage, since
we're on a well. We have bottled water for drinking, but without water
to wash up, flush toilets, et cetera, you might as well mosey on over to
a motel if you are facing an outage that might run more than two days.

Several of our neighbors got a "deal" on 10,000 watt generators on
wheels and jury-rigged hookups to their circuit breaker boxes, and these
work ok but the hookups look scary to me. Also, apparently they cannot
run their heat pumps off these units because of the start-up power
requirements. This is way over my non-electrician pay grade.

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
...


Unfortunately, "life as we know it" ceases with a power outage, since
we're on a well. We have bottled water for drinking, but without water
to wash up, flush toilets, et cetera, you might as well mosey on over
to
a motel if you are facing an outage that might run more than two days.

Several of our neighbors got a "deal" on 10,000 watt generators on
wheels and jury-rigged hookups to their circuit breaker boxes, and
these
work ok but the hookups look scary to me. Also, apparently they cannot
run their heat pumps off these units because of the start-up power
requirements. This is way over my non-electrician pay grade.

-----------------------------------------------

During Hurricane Wilma (while we still had a house in Florida) I had
purchased a 12,500 watt "portable" contractor type generator and
installed a transfer switch to the power panel. We also had well
water there with a 220 volt pump and electric hot water heater. Since
the little Honda doesn't generate 220 volts, I figured we'd be all
set. When the power was lost, I fired up the big generator and
quickly learned how much fuel it went through during the first day and
how noisy the damn thing was. Not knowing how long the power would
be out (turned out to be over a week), I hooked up the little Honda,
just for a refrig, couple of lights, a TV and the Direct TV box.

In the mornings, I'd fire up the big generator for about an hour or so
to take a hot shower. We had an accumulator on the well water
system, so it was good for several toilet flushes without power. I'd
run it again for a half hour in the evening to recharge the
accumulator. Running the big generator this way was sufficient for
the water issue. I also fired up one of two A/C units, just to see
how the big generator handled it. It was fine, but really not worth
the fuel burn since it was November and not all that hot or humid.

The Honda ran 24 hours a day for the 7 or 8 days until commercial
power was restored. The next summer is when we had a pool installed
at the house in MA. The contractors used the Honda every day that
summer and part of the next to power the stone saw they were using
for cutting the bluestone. By that time, I figured the dusty Honda
was probably pretty much worn out and I put it away and forgot about
it. It sat unused, with stale gas in it for the next 6 years until we
had a storm and lost power for several hours. I dug it out and much
to my surprise, it fired up after a few pulls and ran fine. As
mentioned before, I used it again two weeks ago and it ran non-stop
(other than refueling twice a day) for the three day outage. I am
really impressed with these little generators. When this one finally
dies, I'll probably replace it with the EU3000i model and get the
adaptor for an external gas tank.
I've calculated all the current draw we'd require to heat the house,
run a couple of refrigerators and some lights. The EU3000i will
handle it fine.