Hi Riverman,

See below.

in article , riverman at wrote
on 6/7/04 11:51 AM:

Chuck: I've been thinking about your adventure all afternoon, and it reminds
me of my own close call. If it wasn't for my fireman safety boater who
resuced my boat, I would have been deep in the wilderness and in deep
doo-doo myself.

Some thoughts:
1) What were you wearing for footwear? This particular discussion has come
and gone here umpteen times, and we know that we primarily wear footwear for
keeping our feet comfortable while jammed under the deck, but how did it
fare for your 1800 vertical foot scree slope scramble? You probably thought
once or twice about improvements that were possible...

I was wearing some 5-10 Nemo booties. Quite frankly, they worked great. No
blisters, they fit in my boat, and they worked great climbing out. Of
course, one would always like to have better footwear, but they really did
quite well.


2) What was the situation that you left the river? The standard protocol is
to follow the stream down, so that rescuers can find you, or so that you
might (someday) find your boat. Of course, local environment can change
that, so was there something impassible or some reason that you chose to
climb a dangerous cliff and wander lost among woods roads instead of
following the river? Were you already formally or informally familiar with
the uphill terrain?

I did follow the river down, but with 12 miles between me and civilization,
that was not gonna get me out that night. I knew the upper topography and
knew that there were farms up on top, as well as logging roads. Being
acquainted with the topography really helps, though. No doubt.

Lolo Creek is an interesting place in that it is a pocket wilderness,
surrounded by two occupied upland plateaus that are farmed. That's the way
a lot of the Clearwater Country is.

Along the creek proper is a mixed old-growth cedar forest, as well as steep
banks and cliffs. Though I did travel about 2 miles downriver, the risk of
injury was high. I could have fallen from the sharply incised riverbanks,
or drowned swimming down to the next spot. It was a good decision to hike
where I did. I got out before my buddies did.


3) I know when I almost lost my boat, a primary thought I had was that my
emergency food, water and first aid stuff was strapped into the boat. I
always rig my gear so that I can get that stuff out in case of an ugly pin,
but when the boat went downstream, I realized the small flaw in my plan. Did
you have any emergency rations (water, matches, a cell phone) somewhere on
your person so that it was still with you after bail-out? Did you think of
anything you wish you had with you after bail-out, other than your boat?
Do you have any thoughts of how that stuff could be attached, but not be an
entrapment hazard?

Well, I lost the boat, and the stuff in it. A friend gave me his small
river bag with a waist belt--- highly recommended. I think everyone should
get one-- that way, if you crash and burn, your buddy can give you his
'hike-out' kit. The fact that I was able to strap that thing to my waist
improved my climb out pretty dramatically.

I had a quart of water. It might have been good to have in the hike-out kit
some water purification tablets. But I had food and everything else that I
needed.

The error (which I knew at the put-in) was the group was too large. I
personally like paddling small steep creeks with no more than 2 other
people. There is not safety in numbers-- when there's a constantly
vanishing horizon line, you just can't keep track of a large group.

I don't fault my fellow paddlers, though. When one is running serious,
continuous Class V (as we were), you take your chances.

Best,

Chuck

Charles Pezeshki

Typed in Message-ID:

I was wearing some 5-10 Nemo booties. Quite frankly, they worked great. No
blisters, they fit in my boat, and they worked great climbing out. Of
course, one would always like to have better footwear, but they really did
quite well.

I've used the Nemo Highs for about 2 years now and like them pretty well.
However, they are getting a little better that 100 river days on them and they
are starting to show their age and will have to be replaced. I've looked
seriously at the NRS Attack or one of the Teva river shoes.

Well, I lost the boat, and the stuff in it. A friend gave me his small
river bag with a waist belt--- highly recommended. I think everyone should
get one-- that way, if you crash and burn, your buddy can give you his
'hike-out' kit. The fact that I was able to strap that thing to my waist
improved my climb out pretty

dramatically.

I had a quart of water. It might have been good to have in the hike-out kit
some water purification tablets. But I had food and everything else that I

I hadn't thought of the hike out kit, but thats a good idea. I added water
purification tablets to my normal kit a couple of years ago after coming close
to having to spend the night in an emergency bivouac after dealing with an
uncooperative shoulder dislocation victim. The other choice might be to use one
of those bottles with the built in purifier.

I've had the same problem finding a new boat. I've tried a bunch and finally
went back and bought a wavesport Y. You outweight me by a good bit, but at 210+
and 5'9", I've found that the high front cockpit rim that is so common on new
creekers to be a pain in the ass to roll, and frankly, I'm not really impressed
with any enough to go to the trouble of relearning a different techneque.

Planing Hull boats performance degrades quicker under load than old style
boats.

Good luck on the search of a new boat. You could join Bill and I over on the
dark side and start paddling a duckie:^).


SYOTR
Larry C.

HI Larry,

After my little hike-a-roo, I've been thinking about getting three hike-out
kits with belts/beltpack features to distribute to my homeboys at the
put-in. That way there's no issue who wins/loses at the Class V rodeo.

I've also thought about quitting Class V altogether. Not to sound like a
snob, but most Eastern "standard" Class V (Watauga, Upper Yough, etc.) isn't
really in the same league as some of the Western stuff-- the main difference
being not so much in the difficulty of the individual drops, but in the
consequences of a swim in truly continuous whitewater.

I'm 41, got two kids. I gots to stay alive!

I've also done a heckuva lot of research on big boy boats. The two I've
fingered are the Dagger Nomad and the Robson Charger. They're definitely
way better for me than a Big Gun. The ethical question is considering all
the other things I do, and my slowly advancing age and lack of commitment to
those 45-day-a-year years, should I be jumping on relatively hard runs at
all?

I'm also looking at the Pyranha s6f, and wondering if I should buy one, beat
myself senseless on the local play wave, and hang up those Class V spurs. I
earned my Macho Merit Badge a long time ago, and while I'm in great cardio
shape, I'm no natural athlete. I'm lucky if I can chew gum and walk at the
same time. And I can always paddle my Tornado on any run that I actually
belong on that's a little difficult.

But as far as that ducky thing, well... I dunno!

Best,

Chuck

in article , Larry Cable at
ospam wrote on 6/9/04 5:58 PM:

Good luck on the search of a new boat. You could join Bill and I over on the
dark side and start paddling a duckie:^).

Charles Pezeshki wrote in message ...
HI Larry,

I've also thought about quitting Class V altogether. Not to sound like a
snob, but most Eastern "standard" Class V (Watauga, Upper Yough, etc.) isn't
really in the same league as some of the Western stuff-- the main difference
being not so much in the difficulty of the individual drops, but in the
consequences of a swim in truly continuous whitewater.

Not to quibble . . . but neither the Watauga nor the Upper Yough are
class V rivers. The AW site rates both as IV-V, but if you check the
ratings of individual rapids you'll find that the Upper Yough has a
single low V and the Watauga two low V's. Like the Upper Gauley,
which also has a handful of very low V's in AW's opinion (indeed, they
defend their rating of Insignificant as class V by saying "Class V has
to start somewhere . . ."), folks who frequently paddle Eastern Class
V would be unlikely to consider any of these "Class V Classics" class
V rivers.

Like you, now that I have kids I have cut back the difficulty of what
I run considerably, but I have no qualms about running any of the
three rivers listed above at normal flows. Most Eastern Class V's I
do have qualms about running these days.

As an aside, in the days I did paddle a lot of Class V, I found the
Eastern, Rocky Mountain and California ratings pretty consistent (too
little experience in the Pacific Northwest to include). What differed
was what paddlers in the various regions without much experience in
other regions found challenging. Less traveled Eastern boaters often
find high water honking big water bob down the middle challenging,
less traveled Western boaters often find tweeze through the boulder
garden then land on the rocks challenging.

-- Chris

Hi Chris,

Good to hear from you!

Are you still running the Green Narrows?

There's a lot that has happened in the boating scene in the East since I
left, and all your points are well-taken.

In reality, I miss Eastern paddling a lot. Runs like the Watauga, Upper
Yough, and such are really great in that the rapids have some gradient, but
they also have pools at the bottom. It's not this 'cataract in the middle
of a Class III rapid' that seems to characterize too much Idaho Class V.

I also miss the warm water.

It's too bad it's so hard to plan a paddling vacation to the East. I'd be
back there next year.

Best,

Chuck

http://www.wildcountry.info

in article , Chris Bell at
wrote on 6/10/04 6:18 AM:

Like you, now that I have kids I have cut back the difficulty of what
I run considerably, but I have no qualms about running any of the
three rivers listed above at normal flows. Most Eastern Class V's I
do have qualms about running these days.

Charles Pezeshki wrote in message ...
Hi Chris,

Good to hear from you!

Are you still running the Green Narrows?

Yes, but I walk the "Big Two" and I've never run "Go Left" (Go Left
has a sneak called "Squeeze"). Back in the day I didn't feel like I'd
really run the river unless I ran everything. Now it feels like a
real run even though I'm walking Gorilla and Sunshine! The Narrows is
certainly a step up from the Watauga and the Upper Yough, but it isn't
cutting edge -- unless you're running all the hardest lines and
catching all the eddies in inconvenient, very scary places.

-- Chris

(Chris Bell)

Typed in Message-ID:

Not to quibble . . . but neither the Watauga nor the Upper Yough are
class V rivers. The AW site rates both as IV-V, but if you check the
ratings of individual rapids you'll find that the Upper Yough has a
single low V and the Watauga two low V's. Like the Upper Gauley,
which also has a handful of very low V's in AW's opinion (indeed,

they
defend their rating of Insignificant as class V by saying "Class V has
to start somewhere . . ."), folks who frequently paddle Eastern Class
V would be unlikely to consider any of these "Class V Classics" class
V rivers.

Have to agree with Chris on this one. While these were cutting edge streams 10
years ago, there are not the extreme end of Eastern WW now. I would have to
give that to runs like Deckers, Otter, Manns and some of the really tiny and
steep stuff coming off the Walden's Ridge in Tennessee.

What differed
was what paddlers in the various regions without much experience in
other regions found challenging. Less traveled Eastern boaters often
find high water honking big water bob down the middle challenging,
less traveled Western boaters often find tweeze through the boulder

garden then land on the rocks challenging.

I've also found that true. I once ran the New at reasonably high flow, about
4.5' at Fayette Station with a group of reasonably skilled Tennessee Creek
Boaters. Several
very good boaters had repeated swims because they weren't use to dealing with
the big water. I've had Western boaters tell me that the Little in the Smokies
wasn't runnable at 1000 cfs (which is a pretty decent level BTW).


SYOTR
Larry C.