On 7 May 2004 07:23:45 -0700, (Fiona) wrote:

Galen I think anyone would be humiliated at this stuff. I did not see
anything that would not fill a Christian or a pagan with absolute
disgust .

You think wrong. Rush Limbaugh has said it was no more than frat hazing.
Even Don Rumsfeld said that it was "abuse," not torture. Being as how that
seems to be the attitude of some, and others take the "we're not as bad as
Saddam" approach, it is much more credible to me that these folks were
steered into these acts. This is not to say that the people who did these
things are any less guilty, it is just that not everyone involved (or who
comments) is filled with "absolute disgust." There are plenty who think it
is the result of a "few bad apples." I think it involves much more than
that. I do not believe a "few bad apples" chose prisoners in Iraq of all
places. How many military prisons are there? What are the odds?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

Yep, just an "isolated incident". Here's something from the CBC.

"3000 Prisoners Slaughtered in Afganastan

This video is about how the US slaughtered 3000 Afgan prisoners of war. The
video is big - 55 megs download and it is shocking. It makes the Black Hole of
Calcutta look like a picnic. These prisoners were left in sealed truck
containers to suffocate and fry in the hot sun. The few that survived a week
were taken out and shot an buried in mass graves.

The video is EXTREMELY disturbing and it will give you nightmares. If you are
not ready to see this footage - DO NOT WATCH IT !!! This is NAZI level stuff."

http://marc.perkel.com/images/AfganPOWsKilled.mov

Paddlec1 wrote:

Yep, just an "isolated incident". Here's something from the CBC.

"3000 Prisoners Slaughtered in Afganastan

This video is about how the US slaughtered 3000 Afgan prisoners of war. The
video is big - 55 megs download and it is shocking. It makes the Black Hole of
Calcutta look like a picnic. These prisoners were left in sealed truck
containers to suffocate and fry in the hot sun. The few that survived a week
were taken out and shot an buried in mass graves.

The video is EXTREMELY disturbing and it will give you nightmares. If you are
not ready to see this footage - DO NOT WATCH IT !!! This is NAZI level stuff."

http://marc.perkel.com/images/AfganPOWsKilled.mov

The funny thing is that this documentary was shown on German and Dutch
TV almost two years ago, not too long after the invasion of Afghanistan.
I posted about seeing it in a thread about the war in Afghanistan on
Boatertalk, and got a wave of resentment and being called a liar because
it wasn't shown on any U.S. TV station, therefore it wasn't true.

If only that link had been available then.

--
Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko

Type in Message-ID:

The funny thing is that this documentary was shown on German and Dutch
TV almost two years ago, not too long after the invasion of Afghanistan.
I posted about seeing it in a thread about the war in Afghanistan on
Boatertalk, and got a wave of resentment and being called a liar

because
it wasn't shown on any U.S. TV station, therefore it wasn't true.

Excuse me, but the incident was covered by the American press, even had an
investigative piece in Newsweek on it. The only difference is that it was a lot
less judgemental of the US role in the tradegy than the video linked in the
article. No one disputes the basic facts, that Taliban prisoners of the
Northern Alliance were transported in closed trucks and many of them died. What
I do dispute is the role the US played in it. We provided advisors, in
particular fire control and forward air controllers, to the Northern Alliance.
The US did not command the unit nor have control over the action of its troops.


I suspect the actual casualties were somewhat less than protrayed in the video.


I find it somewhat interesting to note that the Special Operation training
program have a similar situation built into the Robin Sage, their final
training exercise. What do you do when you have to support people that play by
different rules than you do?
The reality is that you advise them to do the right thing and deal with the
fact that they often do not.




SYOTR
Larry C.

Does anyone else recognize this language, and get a bit of a chill
from it?

"We provided advisors, in particular fire control and forward air
controllers, to the Northern Alliance. The US did not command the
unit nor have control over the action of its troops."

Hint: Think 1965.

Pete




On 11 May 2004 01:48:43 GMT, ospam (Larry Cable)
wrote:

Excuse me, but the incident was covered by the American press, even had an
investigative piece in Newsweek on it. The only difference is that it was a lot
less judgemental of the US role in the tradegy than the video linked in the
article. No one disputes the basic facts, that Taliban prisoners of the
Northern Alliance were transported in closed trucks and many of them died. What
I do dispute is the role the US played in it. We provided advisors, in
particular fire control and forward air controllers, to the Northern Alliance.
The US did not command the unit nor have control over the action of its troops.

seldom_seen wrote:
Does anyone else recognize this language, and get a bit of a chill
from it?

"We provided advisors, in particular fire control and forward air
controllers, to the Northern Alliance. The US did not command the
unit nor have control over the action of its troops."

Hint: Think 1965.

Yep, I couldn't help but make the same connection.

I already wondered these past couple of days if we're going to see
similar pictures of helicopters being pushed off aircraft carrier decks
to make room for more helicopters flying in from the mainland as the US
and British troops along with their local henchmen retreat from Iraq.

What a mess.

--
Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

I already wondered these past couple of days if we're going to see
similar pictures of helicopters being pushed off aircraft carrier decks
to make room for more helicopters flying in from the mainland as the US
and British troops along with their local henchmen retreat from Iraq.

What a mess.

--
Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Yep, this is a rerun. Only this time, with a little different results. When
they get through kicking our sorry a$$es out of Iraq, They'll be in Saudi
settling a few old scores there. Guess who'll be riding the friggin donkeys
then.

Dennis

Wilko

Typed in Message-ID:

similar pictures of helicopters being pushed off aircraft carrier decks
to make room for more helicopters flying in from the mainland as the US
and British troops along with their local henchmen retreat from Iraq.


I doubt it. Even if there is a new President, he can't afford to allow this to
become a victory for the Islamist. Strategically, the Invasion of Iraq has
always been the right move, although the Bush administration has been very poor
to articulate why that is true. Tactically, they underestimated the force
needed to occupy the country and had poor intelligence on some of the so called
allies, especially among the shiite in the South. The prisoner abuse is just
another embarrassment.

My opinion is that Rumsfield is gone, then we are going to see a
reconfiguration of the Forces involved.
SYOTR
Larry C.

seldom_seen

Typed in Message-ID:

Does anyone else recognize this language, and get a bit of a chill
from it?

"We provided advisors, in particular fire control and forward air
controllers, to the Northern Alliance. The US did not command the

unit nor have control over the action of its troops."

Pete, we have provided arms and advisors to many an ally that we didn't control
thier political or command structure, that's why they are called advisors. Some
that get supported are strictly politically expediate, think Stalin, and some
are long term relationships. Should we take responsiblity for the slaughter of
Polish Army Officers by Stalin because we supported him when he entered the war
with Hitler?

The Advisors are often in a pretty hairy position. They are often supporting
groups that don't particularly like the US, but want the technical and tactical
support that we can provide. Afganistan is a perfect example of this type of
situation.


SYOTR
Larry C.

Larry Cable wrote:

seldom_seen


Typed in Message-ID:

Does anyone else recognize this language, and get a bit of a chill

from it?

"We provided advisors, in particular fire control and forward air
controllers, to the Northern Alliance. The US did not command the


unit nor have control over the action of its troops."


Pete, we have provided arms and advisors to many an ally that we didn't control
thier political or command structure, that's why they are called advisors. Some
that get supported are strictly politically expediate, think Stalin, and some
are long term relationships. Should we take responsiblity for the slaughter of
Polish Army Officers by Stalin because we supported him when he entered the war
with Hitler?

The Advisors are often in a pretty hairy position. They are often supporting
groups that don't particularly like the US, but want the technical and tactical
support that we can provide. Afganistan is a perfect example of this type of
situation.

Of course you're right, Larry, but they don't want to hear it. You're
not going to convince these guys that what we're doing is justified or
even tactically correct. They just want to whine and complain, and
they're going to do that whether there's any reason to or not. Logical
argument isn't going to sway them, since facts are irrelevant to them.
Irrational statements, conspiracy theories and wildly fantastic
correlations to unrelated historical events are their stock in trade.
They'll go to any length to try to prove their point, even if it makes
them look ridiculous. They're just trying to forward their wrong-headed
agenda, nothing more, and it will go on ad-nauseum.

Oh well, at least we live in a country where everyone gets to speak
their piece.